Wing Chun & Kali

[Jubei1]

This question is for Wing Chun practitioners who cross train or have experience in Kali (namely Pekiti Tirsia). I have been recently training in WC and I am interested in Kali. Through my research I have learned that a lot of people promote or comment that Kali complements WC. Is this because of the connection between Bruce Lee & Dan Inosanto? Or are the concepts and principles similar?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, WC and Kali go very well together.
I have some experience in PT Kali and Inosanto Kali.
They blend very well.

[Jubei1]

Thank you Sanjuro ronin for your response.

Can you please elaborate on how the 2 styles compliment each other.
From my little understanding of Kali there are alot of circular movement. How does this style mesh with WC's straight line and economy of movement?

Please keep in mind that i do not intend to insult the style of Kali. This is just an honest question for the purpose of personal learning.

Also since I am training in WC, this question is coming from a WC mindset.

[couch]

I enjoy them together because of how the two hands work together for strikes and disarms - and I guess that's what I find similar to Wing Chun. I find my 'Wing Chun hands' adapt well to the (little) Escrima I know. I haven't found myself concerned with circular vs. linear or any of that - and it has been an non-issue in my learning.

A long-time Escrima player (who is also trained in Celtic stickfighting) told me he thought stickfighting was perhaps like Wing Chun: it's stream-lined, simple and effective...not a lot to learn. (The river is narrow, but it can be deep).

Hope this helps,
CTK

[dirtyrat]

I think the leg maneuvers of certain kali systems (such as Inosanto's kali), silat and kuntao complement wing chun really well. Somehow I feel they should already be a part of wing chun but many WC's practitioners seem to focus mainly on their hands whereas in the above mentioned systems, hand and leg techniques work together.

[Chung Hu]

I know you asked for wing chun practitioners that cross train but I have been studying the Lacaste/Inosanto blend of kali for a few years know. The Jeet Kune Do I mainly train in [also under Inosanto lineage] does teach wing chun blended with the other various techniques.

I would have to say that kali definatly will compliment your current training as it does use both hands but also because it helps recognize ranges well too. They teach various ranges from short [being elbow and empty hand], medium [knife or stick work where you can just hit the arm with the weapon] as well as long range [where you have to kick or you can only hit the others weapon].

It also teachs you to keep moving, you never want to stay still when being attacked with a knife. Last but not least it is good to know what knives/sticks can do so you better know how to defend against them empty handed [with wing chun].

[jesper]

I think the leg maneuvers of certain kali systems (such as Inosanto's kali), silat and kuntao complement wing chun really well. Somehow I feel they should already be a part of wing chun but many WC's practitioners seem to focus mainly on their hands whereas in the above mentioned systems, hand and leg techniques work together.

To true. it seems the art of moving or controlling your body is lost on many people.

Guess its not sexy to train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thank you Sanjuro ronin for your response.

Can you please elaborate on how the 2 styles compliment each other.
From my little understanding of Kali there are alot of circular movement. How does this style mesh with WC's straight line and economy of movement?

Please keep in mind that i do not intend to insult the style of Kali. This is just an honest question for the purpose of personal learning.

Also since I am training in WC, this question is coming from a WC mindset.

The "WC Mindset" ?
You mean simple, effective, direct? aggressive and relentless?
Well, some Kali systems are more defensive than others but typically all that depends on the individual.
The trapping you learn in WC CAN flow well into the "trapping" you learn in Kali.
The "circular" movements in Klai are the slashes (knife) and strikes with the stick which, obviously are better suite for circular moves than they are for "thrusts", but shouldn't screw up your WC since most of the kali knife work is a tad similar to the "butteryfly knives" in WC.
They are not the same mind you, but you will find common ground.
One thing I can suggest is that, since WC is your primary system, you adapt the kali to your empty hand striking and not try to do it the other way around.
Knife work and stick work do NOT translate into empty hand as well as many people think and hope they do.
Empty hand work translates better into armed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To clear up what I said here:

One thing I can suggest is that, since WC is your primary system, you adapt the kali to your empty hand striking and not try to do it the other way around.
Knife work and stick work do NOT translate into empty hand as well as many people think and hope they do.
Empty hand work translates better into armed.

Some kali systems, well, almost all of them I think, make the claim that be learning armed first ( stick and then knife typically) you can then translate those same moves into empty hand.
In THEORY that is correct but in practise it isn't because the power generation is different, while a simple "stab" with a knife with just "arm power" can quiet a bit of damage because it is with a knife, that is NOT the case with just a "punch", you need to put a LOT more power into a blunt impact to make the difference.
Stick work translates better but still not great, a stick has a different impact zone and motion than a fist/hand or arm.
It is far better, IMHO, to go from empty hand and add a weapon to the very same moves, than to do the opposite.

[jesper]

To stab someone effectively and not just some surface scrabes takes quite alot of power actually.
Most stabs never penetrate more then a few centimeters, which is one of the reasons you see people survive multiple stab wounds.
Well that and most of the time your stabbed in non leathal areas

[sanjuro_ronin]

To stab someone effectively and not just some surface scrabes takes quite alot of power actually.
Most stabs never penetrate more then a few centimeters, which is one of the reasons you see people survive multiple stab wounds.
Well that and most of the time your stabbed in non leathal areas

I think you may have missed my point.

[jesper]

I think you may have missed my point.

Not really, I get that you cant just translate armed combat to unarmed without some modifications.
Just dispelling a myth about knife stabbing

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really, I get that you cant just translate armed combat to unarmed without some modifications.
Just dispelling a myth about knife stabbing

I don't recall any myth about knife stabbing
I don't think that anyone thinks that it doesn't take effort to stab someone.

[Jubei1]

First off, I would like to thank everyone who responded to my post. Your information is very much appreciated.

By WC mindset I do mean simple, efficient, and straight. Trying to grasp WC concept and principles I tend to apply it or compare it to other Martial Arts (please correct me if this is a wrong way to look at other MA’s).

The reason why I started this post is because when I mentioned that I would like to learn Kali with my WC training friends they had the typical “WC has weapons too. You don’t need Kali.” For me this wasn’t a thorough enough answer and hence my post.

Sanjuro Ronin,
You mentioned to adapt kali to my empty hands and not the other way around. Why is that? Can you not use WC concept and principles to Kali empty hands?
Also Sanjuro Ronin, I don’t mean to sound facetious, but have you learned the “butterfly knives”? The reason I ask is because I want to know what the differences are; similarities as well as differences.

Also since you guys have experience in both arts, from what mind set do you approach a conflict? What I’m trying to ask is instinctively are you a WC guy or do you now see things with a Kali eye? Or a mixture of both?

Thanks again guys. I’m learning from your wisdom.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro Ronin,
You mentioned to adapt kali to my empty hands and not the other way around. Why is that? Can you not use WC concept and principles to Kali empty hands?
Also Sanjuro Ronin, I don’t mean to sound facetious, but have you learned the “butterfly knives”? The reason I ask is because I want to know what the differences are; similarities as well as differences.

Also since you guys have experience in both arts, from what mind set do you approach a conflict? What I’m trying to ask is instinctively are you a WC guy or do you now see things with a Kali eye? Or a mixture of both?

I trained under Nelson Chan and Sunny Tang, you are in T.O, so you know who they are.
You are asking me about a personal opinion that is based on ME and as such, it doesn't mean it will be relevant to YOU, know what I mean?
Yes, I learned the set and some of the two man drills, but it was NOT my cup of tea, just as WC was NOT my cup of tea, I am better suited for other systems.
Again, its a personal thing.
I approach things with a fighter's mindset, not WC mindest or Kali mindest, but a fighters mindset.

This here may be a problem for you:

The reason why I started this post is because when I mentioned that I would like to learn Kali with my WC training friends they had the typical “WC has weapons too. You don’t need Kali.” For me this wasn’t a thorough enough answer and hence my post.

It doesn't matter what WC has, it doesn't have Kali, just like it doesn't have judo or MT or whatever.
All systems have something to offer, if nothing else you learn how they work and how to beat them, there is a lesson there.