Wing Chun & Kali

[Jubei1]

Interesting question Bennyvt. I guess I just like the style of Kali and the fact that it is a weapons based MA. I am new to WC so the concepts and application of the Bat Jamm Do is beyond me for the moment. Perhaps when I do get to that stage in my WC maybe I’ll come to the conclusion that I do not need to supplement WC weapons concept and principles with Kali.

I have recently tried a kali class from a local club and enjoyed it very much.
Like most of the ppl who have replied to this post I found that the unity of hands in Kali are very similar to WC. However, I found the foot work, placement of elbow and the circular movements to be very different.

I guess my next questions is (for those that cross train) how do you mix both when conceptually and structurally they differ?
Do you just turn off WC method when you use Kali and vice versa?
Or have you mixed the styles (concepts and principles) together somehow? If so how?

[trubblman]

My teacher knows both WC and Kali so I cannot say that I have a problem per se with mixing. If you think about it you probably can come up with an answer. The short answer is to practice as hard as possible and it will come to you.

Interesting question Bennyvt. I guess I just like the style of Kali and the fact that it is a weapons based MA. I am new to WC so the concepts and application of the Bat Jamm Do is beyond me for the moment. Perhaps when I do get to that stage in my WC maybe I’ll come to the conclusion that I do not need to supplement WC weapons concept and principles with Kali.

I have recently tried a kali class from a local club and enjoyed it very much.
Like most of the ppl who have replied to this post I found that the unity of hands in Kali are very similar to WC. However, I found the foot work, placement of elbow and the circular movements to be very different.

I guess my next questions is (for those that cross train) how do you mix both when conceptually and structurally they differ?
Do you just turn off WC method when you use Kali and vice versa?
Or have you mixed the styles (concepts and principles) together somehow? If so how?

[KPM]

I guess my next questions is (for those that cross train) how do you mix both when conceptually and structurally they differ?
Do you just turn off WC method when you use Kali and vice versa?
Or have you mixed the styles (concepts and principles) together somehow? If so how?

I've done a lot of Filipino Martial Art training as well as WCK. But I don't "mix" them. They have different biomechanical bases. You are either doing one biomechanic or the other. The biomechanic involved in most FMAs that I have trained is closer to western boxing than it is to WCK. What marks one method from the other is how you generate power. You can graft some FMA techniques onto a WCK base, or some WCK techniques onto a FMA base, but you aren't truly "mixing" them. What counts is the underlying biomechanic. IMHO.....grafting WCK techniques onto an FMA base can improve the FMA somewhat by making it more direct and efficient. But since WCK is already as direct and efficient as we can make it, then grafting FMA techniques onto it doesn't really gain you much. Of course, that's just my opinion.

[trubblman]

Check out Dan Inosanto video about the idea of "beat". I saw one on 56.com. My sifu does use this idea of "beat" in WC.

[k gledhill]

I would rather use knife methods with 'sticks' than change the 'whole' method for kali, etc....given the reality of carrying either these days makes it a hypothetically redundant. Although I have heard that guys in some West indian Isl. still fight with machetttes to try and steal each others shoes...beware, and right would you carry machettes too, if you knew this ? or buy a gun and fearlessly walk with new shoes

Some of the guys training with me are federal agents and carry firearms, so talking to them about a 300 year old pole and double machette (BJD) makes me grin.

I remember walking into a NYC gym with Philipp Bayer, that we used for a seminar. Other guys trained as we walked in and there before us two guys doing Kali , he said " if you know VT knives, you will never do these moves [lifting/pulling back before striking] ...but again its all if and maybes in todays world of bullets.

Knowledge is power, knowing a lot of stuff never hurts. I try to teach people to keep open minds to all things so you understand your own platform better. The saying " before you go shooting for pheasant, you need to know how it flies" . So even if you have the best aim, great posture, experience with clay targets blah blah, one 'real' bird youve never seen fly shoots up 10 ft, then goes horizontal at 100 mph can be a shock ...for the first time.
If you go shooting Turkey, etc....have happy thanksgiving, and be thankfull you dont worry about how sharp your blades are while walking down a street with new shoes .

[Jubei1]

Thanks for the response everyone.

KPM – your response is clearing things up a little bit for me. So you really cant mix both arts in your opinion? You either do one or the other? Hmmm food for thought.
Also if you find WC techniques to be very direct and efficient already then what Kali techniques are you “grafting” onto your WC?
KPM, the power generation that you speak of from kali; is it from torque (shoulder sway and weight shift)?

What I’m starting to notice are a lot of ppl pointing out the differences in both arts. Perhaps if I ask what are the similarities I can better understand how these 2 arts are coupled together.

K_gledhill,
“before you go shooting for pheasant, you need to know how it flies”

Ive never heard that saying before. I like it.

My understanding is I shouldn’t worry about how the pheasant flys. If it goes off the “line” Imma shoot!!

Hope all you Yanks had a good Thanksgiving.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't really need to combine a empty hand system with a armed one, not in the sense that one has to feed/play off the other.
Studies have shown ( and I don't have them with me right now), that we are very tactile creatures and that, based on touch we can adjust accordingly to what needs to be done ( Heavy touch to lift heavy, light touch to left a baby) but also HOW we do things * Touch a knife and we cut, touch a fork and we poak, touch a saw and we saw).
So, regardless of out preferred method of empty hand fighting, when we touch a blade or a stick, our mind and body ( when properly trained) KNOWS what they are and will "used them accordingly" in the way it has "memorized" the use.

[KPM]

KPM – your response is clearing things up a little bit for me. So you really cant mix both arts in your opinion? You either do one or the other? Hmmm food for thought.

---Correct. They aren't really "mixed", as in mixing Tae Kwon Do with Muay Thai. That kind of "mix" works because they share a similar body mechanic. Wing Chun and FMA do not.

Also if you find WC techniques to be very direct and efficient already then what Kali techniques are you “grafting” onto your WC?

---I don't!

KPM, the power generation that you speak of from kali; is it from torque (shoulder sway and weight shift)?

---I really wouldn't describe it that way, but I think you've got the basic idea.

What I’m starting to notice are a lot of ppl pointing out the differences in both arts. Perhaps if I ask what are the similarities I can better understand how these 2 arts are coupled together.

---Again, IMHO they aren't coupled together.