why is wing chun kuen wing chun kuen?

[Hendrik]

why is wing chun kuen wing chun kuen?


The following southern TCMA have the center line theory, kiu sau, using both hand simulaneously, YJKYM.....etc. or even look a like shape or technics.

So, Why is WCK WCK?
Care to share?




White Crane of Fujian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ECYd9sVj5g

Hung Gar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shh54_AkWZ8

Southern mantis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g

Snake style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8wq9KwBvQQ

Bak Mei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW7gP...eature=related

Dragon style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY

[t_niehoff]

Wait. What? Is this deja vu? I thought I already answered this. Was that a dream? Am I a butterfly dreaming I am on KFO or am I on KFO dreaming I am a butterfly?

[JPinAZ]

aha, maybe he didn't want his boss to find out he spends all day at work dreaming on kfo forums

[Hendrik]

Wait. What? Is this deja vu? I thought I already answered this. Was that a dream? Am I a butterfly dreaming I am on KFO or am I on KFO dreaming I am a butterfly?

Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.


There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.


And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.


There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.


First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.


Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

[kung fu fighter]

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.

Hi Hendrik,

Can you give a definition of what you mean by "snake slide worm moves"?

Also does WCK use this type of power generation exactly like in Emei 12 Zhuang, or is it fused in with the other methods of WCK power generation to create a hybrid type of power generation?

[Hendrik]

Can you give a definition of what you mean by "snake slide worm moves"?

That is Emei 12 zhuang's power generation signature. You could search in this forum or Jim Roselando's article to read about it.

Also does WCK use this type of power generation exactly like in Emei 12 Zhuang, or is it fused in with the other methods of WCK power generation to create a hybrid type of power generation?

the creator merge the White Crane's Snap, Emei's snake slide, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation to create SLT. It is a hybrid, however, when eliminate other element to the basic form the Exactly in Emei or Snap of White Crane will shown.


This also tell the story why Wing Chun's SLT is not Hung Gar's Iron Wire or Set from other style. That is because the goal of SLT set training is to evolve and transform one to become a certain type of power generator which support the application strategy of WCK.

SLT It is not to learn or drill that Kiu Sau or Technics only. It is the unique power generator conditioning and development which is the goal. The idea is at last, one discard any fix type of technics and turn into Just flow as it comes and goes....etc.

Hung Gar's Iron wire is cultivating a very different type of power generation. So does White Crane's sanchin. different type of power generation suit only to different type of structure, application strategy, and all have their strength and weakness. and One could always do a search on the Signature IE White Crane is famous for its Inch power join force for past 300 years. Emei more then 300 years.... so one could really see where is the element likely to from and verify with the old writing to confirm is it really from the source.
We are talking the traceable 300 years or more signature in TCMA here. So, if one claim it is from shao lin, then ask, which shao lin, where shao lin, and what lineage, all of these things can be traced.

If you look at Gary Lam's Youtube, Robert Chu's DVD, Hawkin's youtube, Sung Nung's Youtube, Ken Chung. or Senior Fung from the KooLo family...all the WCK old timers.... see for yourself, you will identify that "Snap, continuous slide, and bounce. " WCK signature.

They might done it in their own way but always the signature of WCK power generation is there. and certainly there also are WCK application strategy signature which comes with the power generation.


I am serious when I said look at the clip of wooden dummy to see can one keep close. if not it is a different type of power generation. IE, one can use Hung Gar type power generation but their body will automatically adjust differently even if they do the same woodern dummy routine. one can use CLF type or White Crane type power generation but then again it will be different.

So, power generation is the dynamic structure. all good TCMA has body structure but one needs to be able to read what is the dynamic structure. and from there one knows how to play with them.


However, if one do WCK's set and drill but dont use the WCK power generation/ application strategy but Hung Gar's dynamic structure. then that is no different then doing Hung Gar. it is not WCK.

further more, WCK doesnt talk about Kiu Sau...etc because Kiu Sau is a transition, when the power generation or dynamic structure is completely evolve it is that flow WCK aim's for.


Just some thoughts, dont take my words but go out and observe to see for yourself.

[kung fu fighter]

That is Emei 12 zhuang's power generation signature. You could search in this forum or Jim Roselando's article to read about it.

Hi Hendrik,



I am familar with the White Crane's Snap, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation but not the Emei's snake continuous slide. I did a search, but wasn't able to find anything that specificly discribe how the Emei's snake continuous slide power generation is used in WCK.

Is the Emei's snake continuous slide the sticking/adhering energy in WCK similar to tai chi's reeling silk?

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,



I am familar with the White Crane's Snap, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation but not the Emei's snake continuous slide. I did a search, but wasn't able to find anything that specificly discribe how the Emei's snake continuous slide power generation is used in WCK.

Is the Emei's snake continuous slide the sticking/adhering energy in WCK similar to tai chi's reeling silk?

Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Is tai chi reeling silk ? Get a Taiji guy to do WCK's woodern dummy and see for yourself is it the same type of power signature?

[Hendrik]

Enough information shared, I leave the rest to you all WC High Hand who is lurking. Dont make me tell all the story, that is political incorrect isnt it?

[Eric_H]

Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Hendrik,

Again you prove that you are not here for a genuine conversation, KFF is asking legitimate questions about the lineage you CLAIM to be a representative of and your answer is "go find a sifu."

Our feelings were about the same when it comes to researching and reporting on Wing Chun and the many branches and flowers that make up our beautiful system: that people who don’t always know a lot seem to be the ones that speak the most, or make the most noise online. Sifu Ku mentioned to me about one particular person by name in the US that has been making a lot of noise and presenting himself as an expert on the Cho Ga lineage but really don’t know all that much about the lineage itself. They presented the VTM with an historic book on their history, lineage, and theory on the system.

You can't answer, because as the Cho Ga family says, you're not qualified to.

RB93SAAT was right, this is just more of your "mental masterbation" all across this forum. You wanna discuss, actually discuss. Otherwise its just a pathetic cry for people to pay attention to you which you apparently get off on. Your behavior is disgusting.

I'll say it again: Get Help, seriously.

[Hendrik]

You can't answer, because as the Cho Ga family says, you're not qualified to.

Traceable evidence and solid signature of WCK is the bottom line.
If you have that shows us.
If not then that is just a he says she says HIS-TORY for Gossip news paper isnt it?

Hope that you could do better then all the Gossip and twisting words and no "beef" wasting of time post.

[kung fu fighter]

Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Ok Hendrik, I will go baisi I have trained under quite a few legitimate old timer WCner, and they never mentioned anything even remotely close to Emei's snake continuous slide power generation lol, perhaps they do it and is something that's developed naturally through the coarse of WCK training, but it was never spoken of specificly. And that was the reason i was asking, because you are the only person that I ever heard use this term.

Thanks for the chat

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let's get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.

Well, that sort of thing makes me not want to post since you will just delete the thread if you don't like how it is going.

There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.

I don't agree with you there. WCK is WCK. As long as you are using WCK movement, as described in the classical forms/exercises, you are "practicing" WCK.

And also, how can one know what is one's strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

That is a "wrong" question. And wrong questions won't lead you to meaningful answers.

The question isn't "why WCK is WCK?" but "what is the WCK curriculum trying to teach you?" In other words, "what is it you are trying to do?" Because if you don't know what it is you are trying to do, you can't develop skill doing it.

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.

I agree with your statement but not with your rationale for the statement.

There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.

Again, that is a wrong question.

First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian's Snap or "inch power from join force" and Emei 12 Zhuang's "snake slide worm moves" also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one' action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap.... however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA's "lifting dead weight" type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.

I don't care how other arts do things or generate power. I don't know much about them, and I don't know if you do either. I am concerned with WCK, not other arts. And I look at WCK from a functional perspective (why and how things fit together to do what I want to do).

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking, and that entails getting in, staying close, sticking, and having short range shocking-type power amongst other things. So, my method of "generating power" -- or using my body -- needs to be able to accommodate those things. I don't care about "power signatures" and so forth -- I care about function.

Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning.....etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records.... Things are much clear then some think.

The method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the situation.

[Eric_H]

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking, and that entails getting in, staying close, sticking, and having short range shocking-type power amongst other things. So, my method of "generating power" -- or using my body -- needs to be able to accommodate those things. I don't care about "power signatures" and so forth -- I care about function.

The method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the situation.

Agreed +1

I have trained under quite a few legitimate old timer WCner, and they never mentioned anything even remotely close to Emei's snake continuous slide power generation lol,

That's because Yik Kam imported it from O-mei, it's NOT native to WC. Wong Wa bo WC doesn't have it, and doesn't need it because Wong Wa Bo finished his WC training. Yik Kam didn't and created the mixed up Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system, end of story.

[Hendrik]

I don't care how other arts do things or generate power. I don't know much about them, and I don't know if you do either. I am concerned with WCK, not other arts. And I look at WCK from a functional perspective (why and how things fit together to do what I want to do).

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking, and that entails getting in, staying close, sticking, and having short range shocking-type power amongst other things. So, my method of "generating power" -- or using my body -- needs to be able to accommodate those things. I don't care about "power signatures" and so forth -- I care about function.



The method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the situation.

You sure dont have to know the details of power signature...power generation.....etc. That is because because your sifu Robert has take care of it and you just use what Robert teaches you. That is totally OK to care only about function and use something without know where it is comes from and ...etc. No one needs to know all the engine to drive a car.


However, for those who like to look deeper they need to know things in details to see what work and what doesnt work; even as simple as to control the opponent while striking, not every power generation and application strategy contribute to the same result.

Again, your Sifu Robert has taken care of the strategy part and power generation part for his CSL WCK, so the deeper and advance level is always there whether one aware of it or not.