Benny Meng

[Pakua4581]

Interesting...but hasnt fabricating a convoluted history always been a mainstay of the Chinese martial arts,we have all heard stories of some grand teacher learning from a secluded monk/animals fight/dream sequence etc,yet we train in these systems whole heartedly,Dong Hai Quans Bagua,even Wing Chuns legend of Yim Wing Chun/Ng Mui/Snake and Crane fighting, to name a few, all sound like olden days marketing strategies.

Objectively what Benny Meng and the other gent put together seem like a very useful system on its own merit.Benny seems to have spent a long time in training in Wing Chun and he seems to have the skill and the understanding to go with it.
I'm not condoning the stories behind this Black /Red Flag etc controversy, but in the end the proof of the pudding is in its eating and they seem to have something there! having said that they should market it as their own creation rather than something old and unique.

But then again Chinese tradition and Confucian thought all point to something old and handed down by elders as being the 'real deal'.Would anyone bother to learn a system if it was said to be a creation of the Sifu or his teacher,thats just bad marketing!****ed if you do and ****ed if you dont!

Having said all that I have no interest whatsoever in Wing Chun as I am a Southern Mantis practitioner.

[JPinAZ]

.Benny seems to have spent a long time in training in Wing Chun and he seems to have the skill and the understanding to go with it.

Haha, and there's the rub

[Pakua4581]

I guess if a student of this method gets to walk away after a violent mugging and gets to have dinner with his/her family,then 'Flags' and history would be the last thing they would be mulling over......

Anyway,just call it Flag Kune Do or something and let the Wing Chun community get on with their lives

[kentchang]

As a matter of fact, there is but one Black Flag guy in Southern Brazil, a guy from Sao Paulo, who, in spite of being aware that it's a recent fabrication, decided to remain in Lin's organization for particular reasons.

Benny's representative in Brazil is a guy from the North. More than that, he's Benny's business partner, so he keeps his men, who, as a rule, have no good command of English, unaware of the facts.

Life can be very strange!

For the sake of Wing Chun Kuen, somebody should stop making sand castles and show some respect to the wing chun community.

I second to that.

Do you really have to ask, about convenience over integrity?

Ironically, the VTM was originally Moy Yat’s idea but then GM Moy Yat withdrew his support & trust. In the Wing Chun world and from a museum point of view, the VTM is shady.

Moy Yat’s students, Williams Cheung’s student and GM Cheung share similar opinions, see “Any Master Benney Meng students?” thread.
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=45016

Moy Yat must have had some good reason to withdraw his support for the VTM.

[Jeff_H]

Pakua I understand your pov. For me some people only have legend passed down but it's different when truth is known and available to negate "legend". I assume many people who can walk away from a confrontation would be thankful. However don't kid yourself unless you done enough reflex and focus training because when it happens only what you spend the most time on is what will come out.

Another reality I would not ignore that most people who start or like something they think is real and legit then find out its fake feel cheated.

Example: in 80's people liked Milli Vanilli until they found out they were frauds. What happen then? When the truth come out then people rejected them.

Or when people find out athletes use steroids then the people no longer support them because they are fake.

The question I think is about honesty and integrity to community. Community benefit or take advantage of community?

Watch these videos and see for yourself the pieces of the puzzle.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1...hannel&list=UL

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiA...feature=relmfu

[Happy Tiger]

Has Kenneth Lin ever made a direct statement of who his VT sifu was in the 90's in Vancouver? Ours was the only WSLVT in Vancouver then and most other VT clubs and sifu visited us often since it was a chinese kung fu supply store.

[Runlikehell]

Has Kenneth Lin ever made a direct statement of who his VT sifu was in the 90's in Vancouver? Ours was the only WSLVT in Vancouver then and most other VT clubs and sifu visited us often since it was a chinese kung fu supply store.

I don't think he has. I wonder if he even trained it there, or if he started when he went back to Indonesia?

[Shadow_warrior8]

Pakua I understand your pov. For me some people only have legend passed down but it's different when truth is known and available to negate "legend". I assume many people who can walk away from a confrontation would be thankful. However don't kid yourself unless you done enough reflex and focus training because when it happens only what you spend the most time on is what will come out.

Another reality I would not ignore that most people who start or like something they think is real and legit then find out its fake feel cheated.

Example: in 80's people liked Milli Vanilli until they found out they were frauds. What happen then? When the truth come out then people rejected them.

Or when people find out athletes use steroids then the people no longer support them because they are fake.

The question I think is about honesty and integrity to community. Community benefit or take advantage of community?

Watch these videos and see for yourself the pieces of the puzzle.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQQN1...hannel&list=UL

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiA...feature=relmfu

Spoke to a 5 ancestor fist master(official successor to his lineage in malaysia)

In the 5 ancestors it is written to be
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ancestors

the breathing methods and iron body of Da mo (達尊拳)
the posture and dynamic power of Luohan (羅漢拳)
the precision and efficient movement of Emperor Taizu (太祖拳)
the hand techniques and the complementary softness and hardness of Fujian White Crane (白鶴拳)
the agility and footwork of Monkey (猴拳)

He tells me this is inaccurate

Actually the 2 of these above are the same ancestor, I do not remember taixu and luohan or da mo and luo han

But the 5th ancestor is the so called sixth influence in the wiki; Xuan Nu also known as Hian Loo(玄女拳).'The Lady in the Green Dress,' - a very soft art

HKB calls the mysterious female fist kungfu could it be actually the 5th ancestor of 5 ancestor fist Xuan Nu also known as Hian Loo(玄女拳).'The Lady in the Green Dress,'

seems to be the same story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiA...feature=relmfu

[Pakua4581]

Ive gone through all the 'debunking' links in detail....

I have also seen this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKfsMjZ7r5U

This clip shows some very well developed Fajing/Ging,having said that the training form also looked like either White Crane or Fan Zhuang Quan Southern Praying Mantis,both systems that are taught in Indonesia.

If he added the internal training of these systems to Wing Chun,then he would definitely have a powerful end product,which seems to be the case here.I think this is a positive development.

Its also hilarious that a Sifu who a few years ago was calling himself 'Grandmaster" (as a 30 something) and who has his own 'Brand" name wing chun is leading the debunking mission, a Pot calling the Kettle Black!!!

[Jeung]

Spoke to a 5 ancestor fist master(official successor to his lineage in malaysia)

In the 5 ancestors it is written to be
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ancestors

the breathing methods and iron body of Da mo (達尊拳)
the posture and dynamic power of Luohan (羅漢拳)
the precision and efficient movement of Emperor Taizu (太祖拳)
the hand techniques and the complementary softness and hardness of Fujian White Crane (白鶴拳)
the agility and footwork of Monkey (猴拳)

He tells me this is inaccurate

Actually the 2 of these above are the same ancestor, I do not remember taixu and luohan or da mo and luo han

But the 5th ancestor is the so called sixth influence in the wiki; Xuan Nu also known as Hian Loo(玄女拳).'The Lady in the Green Dress,' - a very soft art

HKB calls the mysterious female fist kungfu could it be actually the 5th ancestor of 5 ancestor fist Xuan Nu also known as Hian Loo(玄女拳).'The Lady in the Green Dress,'

seems to be the same story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqiA...feature=relmfu

hey shadow_warrior8,

it looks like lin uses alot of stories from the internet. Look at this old post from some years ago. its about what your talking about, the lady in the green dress, some call it the 6th ancestor. lin's idea was to say Master Tio taught him male wing chun and the Ip Man lineage (Vikoga) is female Wing Chun and mix in 5 Ancestor stories into the mix. however... the VTM did not do the research to find out all this stuff but then it took Master Tio to tell the truth that he did not teach Wing Chun. lin's lies are on many things, one thing is that he keeps changing the name of his made up fake stuff fu. now he is trying out another name like his other names made no progress all. so every so often, lin picks up some idea here and there to bs the public. basically nothing come out from lin and the VTM can be trusted.

old post on 6th ancestor:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...9&postcount=10

Black Flag Eng Chun's orginal family tree revealed and Ngo Cho Kun's Family tree
Ngo Cho Kun (5 ancestors) has a male/female history, like Black Flag Eng Chun. I'll show you how as best I can. Kenneth Lin's (Salim) martial arts background is known in Indo before he left. He learned Gui In Lam's Ngo Cho Kun lineage and then picked up Vikoga Wing Chun from Chung Che Man. When Lin came to America in 2005 he promoted Ngo Cho Kun and Vikoga Wing Chun as Ngo Cho Eng Chun Male/Female family tree. When he heard of VTM's promotion of Shaolin Wing Chun he started to change his story in the Indo forums and advertisement in America. He attached Shaolin Wing Chun stories that VTM promotes to make a transistion. Today Kenneth Lin is trying to erase his Ngo Cho Eng Chun male/female family tree and Gui In Lam's Ngo Cho Kun background by calling it Black Flag Wing Chun. He does this to declare himself grandmaster of Black Flag Wing Chun and promote his teacher Tio Tik Kwie's status. What does VTM gain from this? Money from magazine articles, books and Shaolin Wing Chun 3-halls program. There is always a motive. Sergio gains advertisement promotion for his large schools in Europe. But this is at the expense of Ngo Cho Eng Chun and maybe others.

Original Black Flag Wing Chun Male/Female branch:
Kenneth Lin called his kung fu "Ngo Cho Eng Chun USA Group" when he came to America but today in 2010 he has transitioned to Black Flag Wing Chun. His family tree had a male and female branch as he published originally. Lin promoted the male/female version of Ngo Cho Eng Chun USA Group. Lin himself at first stated to the VTM: “The system as it was passed down was preserved in two forms: a Male aspect and a Female aspect.” Today his orginal promotion has changed. Today he declares himself as the grandmaster of Black Flag Eng Chun while erasing the female side, Vikoga Wing Chun, from his family tree and Ngo Cho Kun from the male side.
Where did Lin come up with a story of male/female for his Ngo Cho Eng Chun? Lin used Ngo Cho Kun's family story for his self promotion and transistion to Shaolin Wing Chun Black Flag. You see Ngo Cho Kun has a story about a 6th ancestor who was female, I'll show soon. But first, here is Black Flag Wing Chun's orignal explaination in its transistion from Ngo Cho Eng Chun's male/female history.

Ngo Cho Eng Chun/Black Flag Eng Chun's male side (Lin's original):
For the male branch, Lin had Ngo Cho Kun 5 male ancestor family lineage and teachers. That's what he wanted us to believe. (Today this is Shaolin temple 5 Flag Wing Chun)
Ngo Cho Eng Chun/Black Flag Eng Chun's female side (Lin's original):
For the Female branch, he labeled Ng Mui & sometimes Yim Wing Chun. Lin learned various Wing Chun under Victor Leow's Vikoga Wing Chun family tree. (Today this is Shoalin Red Flag Wing Chun or some color)

So you see, Kenneth Lin originally married Ngo Cho Kun with Vikoga Wing Chun to call it Ngo Cho Eng Chun USA Group in 2005. This is where the Ngo Cho Kun's family story fits into his Black Flag Eng Chun promotion. You see Ngo Cho Kun is known to have a male/female story.

Ngo Cho Kun Male side:
Ngo Cho Kun has mixtures of 5 Ancestor styles: White Crane, Monkey, TaiZu(Grand Ancestor) and Lo Han (18 Immortals) and Tat Chun (Bodhidharma's method).
Ngo Cho Kun Female side:
Mysterious Female Fist (6th Ancestor)

Facts:
Kenneth Lin's Ngo Cho Kun family lineage is from Gui In Lam.
Kenneth Lin's Wing Chun family lineage is from Vikoga Wing Chun.
Kenneth Lin called the marriage of Ngo Cho Kun and Vikoga Wing Chun, Ngo Cho Eng Chun.
Kenneth Lin has never denied learning Vikoga Wing Chun or Ngo Cho Kun.
Ngo Cho Kun is known to have a 6th female ancestor, Mysterious Female Fist.
VTM promotes a super secret Shaolin Wing Chun 3-halls ("Dim" for Fukien dialect effect) program.

This is the male/female story of Ngo Cho Kun! May the truth shine over Black Flag Eng Chun and the changing stories of Kenneth Salim, Benny Meng and Sergio!!!