Building a TCMA Library Thread.

[Foiling Fist]

On page 17, Figure 2-4B, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with Dennis Rovere, who is leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. This is not in the photos of the old time practitioners.

Leaning forward is a mistake for any reason unless you are a Western Boxer. To lean torso forward to cause a blow to glance is slower than the striking arm or foot. Leaning forces a commitment to forward movement, which can be lead to throw one off balance. It is a basic of all Chinese Internal Martial Arts.


****

On the page that I am leaning forward, I am the one throwing the punch and the other fellow has turned his body - which has caused me to lurch forward as the punch is redirected. This was done at full speed with the digital camera on burst - then we pick the best photos to illustrate the point - which is the 45 degree angle of the chest that allows the blow to glance by. Sorry the work doesn't meet your low standards and 'fluffy qi dancing'. Instead of knocking other people and displaying your ignorance why don't you actually learn xingyi

I have looked at your site and what you write. I may be a 'prima donna' but your are simply full of ****! Get an ****ing education moron.

As for xue sheng, he and I are not acquainted; but he certainly has more manners than you.

[Foiling Fist]

Dennis Rover ‘is the first non-Asian to receive special recognition as a martial arts instructor from the government of the People’s Republic of China’, page 144. Why would they recognize him if he was not practical? The People’s Republic of China has not taught this Hsing-i to their military for decades, so they give up some de-clawed and outdated methods to China’s main military competition; America/Great Britain.

Rovere was taught by Colonel of the Central Military Academy at Nanjing; who should have been the one posing for the photos to insure quality. This might have been the best for the West in 1974; but it is not now. Perhaps most westerners will never understand the deeper aspects of Hsing-i; if that is the case; the maybe this Reader’s Digest version is for them.

Why would one train from a Taiwanese in an enemies (Red Army) martial art? Why not go to the Peoples Republic of China?

Blah, Blah...

My point was to translate and then demonstrate applications that he discusses but does not show. I also demonstrate how some of the techniques were taught at the military academy. Since you are obviously not an academic by any stretch of the imagination, I find it interesting that you can only bolster your own 'expertise by 'nit picking' the works of others. Yes, I see you have reviewed your own book and deemed it a quality production but realistically I don't think you have anything to offer in the way of insight or historical research or ...

Blah, Blah...

I am a prima donna ...

****

[Foiling Fist]

HSING YI SCHOOL LINEAGE

• Ji Long Feng
• Cao Ji Wu
• Dai Ling Bang
• Li Nen Ran
• Kuo Yun Shen & Li Kui Yuan
• Sun Lu Tang
• Kuo Yu Chang
• Yim Shan Wu
• Wong Jack Man

There are three basic branches of Hsing Yi: Honan, Hupei and Shanxi. Sun Lu Tang learned Hupei

(Hubei) branch then added his theories and modified the sets so it is like a sub-branch of Hupei. The elements are fundamentally the same.

Blah, Blah ...
I think I have said enough on the matter because you really are thick, so any more comments on my part are pointless. BTW do you even do xingyi - since the lineages you have aren't too clear? At least the ROC and Chinese military (ROC & PRC) recognize my background - and that is documented; so maybe I am a prima donna - with 40 years of training and teaching experience.

****
I have been training formally since 1971, unofficially since 1968.

[Foiling Fist]

I see major discrepancies in Rovere’s posed photographs; between the illustrations that are in the background of his poses, in classic Hsing-I fundamentals, and universal martial concepts.

On page eighteen, Rovere writes:
“If your weight is back-weighted, basic bio-mechanics will show that you will be prevented from delivering all of your force into the target.

Double weightedness is good for pushing and pulling, such as pushing a car, lifting weights, or a tug-of-war. Fighting is much more dynamic and requires the transfer of the power base-stance; to accommodate the best focused wave. Would anyone have a fixed double weighted stance when they surfed, or snow boarded?

Having your stance back-weighted also leads to another problem, namely, a tendency to straighten the front leg. Any low kick, such as a Xingyi horse kick targeting the straightened knee, would easily cause it to hyperflex, severely damaging it.”

When one is seasoned by sparring and/or combat; they always keep the front leg slightly bent; one who spends there time on forms/Katas does not. When you advance, your training prevents this.

A major foundation of Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts is the stance concept of having either leg being empty or full. This is not weight, although sometimes they are the same. This is fullness of Qi, stance rooting and a centering of the driving energy.
This is the generator of the wave flow force, using the whole body weight being directed into the strike. Kinematics deal s with this somewhat, not biomechanics.

“Sung Shi-Jung
…Therefore, in Hsing-I never equally share the weight on your two feet.”
Hsing-I, Chinese Mind-Body Boxing, by Robert W. Smith, page 98.

Also see: http://martial.securesites.net/forum...ad.php?t=62321
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[QUOTE=rovere;1145342]
Blah, Blah,
...
Sorry the work doesn't meet your low standards and 'fluffy qi dancing'. Instead of knocking other people and displaying your ignorance why don't you actually learn xingyi

I have looked at your site and what you write. I may be a 'prima donna' but your are simply full of ****! Get an ****ing education moron.
...
[QUOTE]

[Foiling Fist]

In looking at Rovere’s photos; and comparing them with the background older photos: the saber has the most obvious differences and discrepancies with the older photos and illustrations.

All saber photos show Rovere with a higher, non rooted stance; without sinking! It is like looking at a boat or truck that is empty compared to one that is full loaded.

When Rover holds the Hsing-I Saber,
1) overhead; he extends his arms out more in front;
a) it relies more on the arms than the stance and body centering and
b) requires more forward momentum or arm strength for power;

2) when at rest and chambered: the saber is held further from a one’s lower Dan Tien at the rest/prone position; as illustrated in background picture.

Holding the saber higher may have some practicality for running or marching drills, but still lacks the power. Not having the saber swing all the way down and back to a position closer to the Lower Dan Tien; constricts the power of the swing, and looses the benefits of rooting and Qi focusing through one’s center.



****

Blah, Blah ...

Sorry the work doesn't meet your low standards and 'fluffy qi dancing'. Instead of knocking other people and displaying your ignorance why don't you actually learn xingyi

I have looked at your site and what you write. I may be a 'prima donna' but your are simply full of ****! Get an ****ing education moron.

As for xue sheng, he and I are not acquainted; but he certainly has more manners than you.

[Foiling Fist]

On page 19, Figure 2-5A; Rovere has his front leg straight and bent in ward; this is not a San Ti stance. This is very susceptible to a break with a quick snap kick.

There are two universal defense against kicks to the knee:
1) angling the knee forward, so the kick gets hit by the front striking area of the knee, rather than the more flexible joint;

2) when in a Cat Stance, T-Stance or San-Ti; the lesser weight of the front foot is shifted backward toward rear leg, and
a) the front leg evades the kick by repositioning or
b) the front leg’s knee is repositioned to hit attacker with knee or shin strike.

When Rovere talks about attacks to the front leg, he uses:

1) the even weightedness of the stance to supposedly make front leg repositioning easier, and

2) and the front leg’s toes being bent slightly inward, to make breaking of the knee more difficult.



****

Blah, Blah...

I find it interesting that you can only bolster your own 'expertise by 'nit picking' the works of others. Yes, I see you have reviewed your own book and deemed it a quality production but realistically I don't think you have anything to offer in the way of insight or historical research or ...

I think I have said enough on the matter because you really are thick, so any more comments on my part are pointless. BTW do you even do xingyi - since the lineages you have aren't too clear? At least the ROC and Chinese military (ROC & PRC) recognize my background - and that is documented; so maybe I am a prima donna - with 40 years of training and teaching experience.

[rovere]

since you obviously can't read and quote out of context.

Special Recognition from the Government of the Republic of China - not as you quoted People's Republic of China. So your whole rant about PRC and outdated xingyi etc., etc., is pointless.

You mention the date 1974 I assume that you are referring to when I received my instructor's certification. My teacher was instructor at the Central Military Academy in the 1930's and had passed away before the book was written. Since you are an expert in Chinese history and martial arts (and I assume you can read Chinese) you can look up the third graduating class at Whampoa and find his information. The information is readily available

The recognition from the Chinese militaries is for modern training with several of their units - of course you missed that point too.

Thats a lot of names... Are you certified to teach by all those instructors? Or any instructor? Or just put the names out?

Also, I see you side step all the questions asked you including your lack of academic credentials. And we could if I had the time debate mechanical efficiency since I have professional qualifications to do so. 5 degree toe in with knee forward makes the knee stable and not susceptible to breaking. (Have someone read and explain the instructions in the book since you obviously can't do so clearly on your own and you will see that I am correct.)

Also I was an architect for 30 years and have never heard the term draughtman's right angle - nor have any of my colleagues - is this another pseudo intellectual comment to portray yourself as smarter than you are? If so, you failed miserably once again.

But enough from me I have more important things to do and gain nothing from this discourse other than lost time.

You are certainly the undisputed king of internet xingyi, so I bow to your majestic whatever..

Continued success with your book, I see you gave yourself a great review. Maybe I'll get a chance to review it (NOT)

[Shǎguā]

Foiling Fist's envious game
Is to Destroy Rovere's book fame
And have us want what all plants crave;
His rotten brand of Burma Shave

[William123]

All saber photos show Rovere with a higher, non rooted stance; without sinking! It is like looking at a boat or truck that is empty compared to one that is full loaded.

When Rover holds the Hsing-I Saber,
1) overhead; he extends his arms out more in front;
a) it relies more on the arms than the stance and body centering and
b) requires more forward momentum or arm strength for power;

2) when at rest and chambered: the saber is held further from a one’s lower Dan Tien at the rest/prone position; as illustrated in background picture.

Holding the saber higher may have some practicality for running or marching drills, but still lacks the power. Not having the saber swing all the way down and back to a position closer to the Lower Dan Tien; constricts the power of the swing, and looses the benefits of rooting and Qi focusing through one’s center.

Based on my research on republican era publications, Huang Bo Nien's book is the only one that deals with the use of the western saber in xingyiquan. Mr. Rovere's translation is not only very informative and unique, based on first hand knowledge from the experiences of his teacher Colonel Chang who taught at the Military Academy. You must live in lala land, dreaming on being a military "expert' in this field to comment about Mr. Rovere's book.

Your teacher did not attend nor taught at the Military Academy, so how are you supporting your arguments? Based on pictures that have already been explained to you, merely nitpicking what you thing is wrong based on your limited knowledge? I also looked at your website and saw no academic qualifications in any field. How can you pretend to lecture Mr. Rovere who has Bachelor’s degrees in Archeology (bone oracles), Architecture and a Masters degree? Combined with his experience in training the Canadian armed forces and others in these methods to name just a few? You are really delusional

William

[William123]

Rovere's claim of nit-picking is unsubstantiated and appears to be related to the character flaw of denial, since it has not been responded to.

And you sure have responded about your qualifications, your own book "review" or your expertise in miltary xingyiquan...

[Foiling Fist]

On page 17, Figure 2-4B, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with Dennis Rovere, who is leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. This is not in the photos of the old time practitioners.

Rovere:

“To respond: If you read the text and the captions: I am not illustrating a xingyi punch but rather showing how the body has to absorb or can redirect the force using the half turn position. the 45 degree angle of the torso lets the strike aimed at the centre line simply slide past.”

“On the page that I am leaning forward, I am the one throwing the punch and the other fellow has turned his body - which has caused me to lurch forward as the punch is redirected. This was done at full speed with the digital camera on burst - then we pick the best photos to illustrate the point - which is the 45 degree angle of the chest that allows the blow to glance by.”

Hsing-I True Master

“When you are upright and your body is harmonious, the ch’i circulates everywhere. You should never incline forward or backward, or left or right: you must always keep your balance and be centered.”

T’ien Ching-Chieh, Hsing-i Chinese Mind-Boxing, by Robert Smith, page 105.

[Foiling Fist]

When stepping forward, the front foot points forward, or outward.

Turning the front foot inward, will require un-weighting and turning foot before stepping; a mistake.

A pigeon-toed martial artist?
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5 degree toe in with knee forward makes the knee stable and not susceptible to breaking.
Blah, Blah.

[Drake]

Dude, you are so weird.

[Xue Sheng]

Dang the things I miss when I don’t often check a site

You mentioned I have posted on 3 other forums with xue sheng? Not true. I did comment on one other forum though.

Yup and it was not with me as much as just happened to be in the same thread that Foiling Fist was also in which was about your book...only Foiling fist was under a different name there . Other than that there is no association, I do however like your book Mr Rovere, but I have already said that.

For some reason Foiling Fist, even under his other name, is obsessed with me, don't know why....could be that nagging question I asked that Foiling Fist that he has never answered.

Bottom-line there is no arguing with him and no way of changing his mind…. no matter how much proof you provide to the contrary he will be convinced he is right even when he is ever so wrong….. best to let him tilt at windmills and not give him soapbox to stand on....basically don't feed the trolls

And now foiling fist will unleash a tirade in my direction....

[Drake]

Still doesn't explain what a DRAUGHTMAN'S right angle is...