Using the Five Elements to teach Wing Chun

[chusauli]

Kind of like the Dan (Duan) gradings in Japanese systems. They originate from Shinto and Zen, which in turn originate from Taoism and Ch'an.

Dan systems originated with Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo, and eventually worked into other martial arts. They were not from Shinto and Zen.

Shinto is not from Taoism.

Zen is simply the Chan tradition in Japan from Lin Ji (Rinzai) and Cao Dong (Soto) Chan Sects in China.

Spencer, you really need to do more research.

[LoneTiger108]

AS for learning more about Xingyi and the 5 elements, you've been the one advocating that people get off their butts and do their own research, like I did. Off you go!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan

Wow! The invaluable wikipedia Thanks for the research tip

Even looking through what stuff is on here is okay really. Basically saying the same thing I have, using the elements as a guide to what attacks/defence to use against what. But that was taught tome me through my Chun, and the 'feelings' via the interactive trainig I had were slightly different than the ones explained on there.

Splitting 劈 Pī Metal Like an axe chopping up and over.
Drilling 鑽 Zuān Water Drilling forward horizontally like a geyser.
Crushing 崩 Bēng Wood Arrows constantly exploding forward.
Pounding 炮 Pào Fire Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.
Crossing 橫 Héng Earth Crossing across the line of attack while turning over.

This also is not really what I'm trying to get into here either. It's having a structured method that enables progression year on year, and that is what the construct of Wing Chun has. The 'Learn how to learn, practise, gain skill, use and change' IS a teaching I have been exposed to. And it works.

I will give an example, if you learn to fight (use) without even learning how to learn, what chance have you got? Each is dependent on the next and there are no short cuts imho.

[LoneTiger108]

Dan systems originated with Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo, and eventually worked into other martial arts. They were not from Shinto and Zen.

Originally from the word Duan "phase" in Chinese, I have to say your point here means nothing, but thanks for the History lesson.

Shinto is not from Taoism.

Maybe I should have just compared these old ways. I know how sensitive the 'origins' can be. Difference between being a hermit and shaman as far as I was aware. Beliefs and superstitions seem to be very similar too. And I would say that Taoism orignates from Paganism or Alchemy but who really knows which came first?

Everyone seems to like wikipedia, so let's see what they say...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism_in_Japan

Taoism is similar to Shinto in that it also started as an indigenous religion in China however it is more hermetic than shamanistic. Taoism's influence can be seen throughout the culture but to a lesser extent than jukyō.

Zen is simply the Chan tradition in Japan from Lin Ji (Rinzai) and Cao Dong (Soto) Chan Sects in China.

Spencer, you really need to do more research.

Thanks again Teacher Chu. Why do you think I'm here if not for research?? Especially when info is so freely available by people like your good self?

[couch]

This also is not really what I'm trying to get into here either. It's having a structured method that enables progression year on year, and that is what the construct of Wing Chun has. The 'Learn how to learn, practise, gain skill, use and change' IS a teaching I have been exposed to. And it works.

I will give an example, if you learn to fight (use) without even learning how to learn, what chance have you got? Each is dependent on the next and there are no short cuts imho.

http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/20...lders-moy-yat/

I think the way you use the word progression is in the context of learning a curriculum. But this doesn't work in a fighting context. The only way you get better as a Kung-Fu fighter is to keep fighting and have a coach evaluate your shortcomings so you can work on them.

Curiously, what is 'learning how to learn?' To me, it sounds like a round-a-bout way of doing things.

[chusauli]

Originally from the word Duan "phase" in Chinese, I have to say your point here means nothing, but thanks for the History lesson.

Ah, but please understand what you wrote:

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
Kind of like the Dan (Duan) gradings in Japanese systems. They originate from Shinto and Zen, which in turn originate from Taoism and Ch'an.

What you said is nonsensical. Your sentence above would seem to indicate that Dan gradings originate from Shinto and Zen, etc... hence the history lesson. If you meant the word Dan is from the Chinese character (kanji) for Duan, I would agree. English is your main language, I assume?

Maybe I should have just compared these old ways. I know how sensitive the 'origins' can be. Difference between being a hermit and shaman as far as I was aware. Beliefs and superstitions seem to be very similar too. And I would say that Taoism orignates from Paganism or Alchemy but who really knows which came first?

All of this rolling of eyes must make you dizzy. (To borrow a phrase from Jim Hawkins ) Actually I find it a bit drama-queen like, but that's your style. There are many forms of Taoism (Daoism) - you can read up on Thomas Cleary's, Ni Hua Ching's, Eva Wong's, and others' works and get a good taste. Ancestor worship is part of Taoism...but I would not say Shinto is derived from Taoism directly, it is more indigenous to Japan. You can see the Shinto is Japanese ancestor worship and purification rituals. Of course, China had a great influence on Japan and would have introduced the lunar calendar, and holidays would be a part of it.

Everyone seems to like wikipedia, so let's see what they say...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism_in_Japan

Um, Spencer, hate to break it to you, wikipedia is not the end all, be all source of Asian Philosophy... LOL! Better sources really need to be consulted and cited.

Thanks again Teacher Chu. Why do you think I'm here if not for research?? Especially when info is so freely available by people like your good self?

Don't know if you're being sarcastic, but will take that at face value, since I see no dramatic rolling of eyes.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[LoneTiger108]

All of this rolling of eyes must make you dizzy. (To borrow a phrase from Jim Hawkins ) Actually I find it a bit drama-queen like, but that's your style.

Perhaps I should look into my smilie use? I have often wondered if they may give out a different meaning than the one I mean... if y'know what I mean?

There are many forms of Taoism (Daoism) - you can read up on Thomas Cleary's, Ni Hua Ching's, Eva Wong's, and others' works and get a good taste. Ancestor worship is part of Taoism...but I would not say Shinto is derived from Taoism directly, it is more indigenous to Japan. You can see the Shinto is Japanese ancestor worship and purification rituals. Of course, China had a great influence on Japan and would have introduced the lunar calendar, and holidays would be a part of it.

Part of what I was looking for really was the origin of 5 elements, and my money is on Taoism. The Shinto point really should have been a comparison, although I am still convinced the two 'ways' have similar origins.

Um, Spencer, hate to break it to you, wikipedia is not the end all, be all source of Asian Philosophy... LOL! Better sources really need to be consulted and cited.

Well, that was a sarcastic post of mine Robert! And you said exactly what I was thinking.

The other remark was just an off the cuff number with no sarcasm intended. I have said it many times, when you're on the money you're on the money, and I think you should know the 5 elements more than most as you must use it in your diagnosis and treatments?

It's good to be pointed in the right direction for research, so Happy Thanksgiving to you sir!

[LoneTiger108]

“Kung Fu without a system is not Kung Fu. Kung Fu dependant on a system is not good Kung Fu.” -Moy Yat

A very good point indeed

I guess this is one of my dilemas. From my understanding, my Sifu learnt varied methods to teach by Lee Shing and the older ways just clicked with me for some reason. With a modern English approach to learning Wing Chun I felt like there was so much that was unsaid, and sometimes ideas like the 5 elements just seemed to fit for me at the time.

Curiously, what is 'learning how to learn?' To me, it sounds like a round-a-bout way of doing things.

It's quite simple. Learning needs an objective, a goal, and different objectives call for different teaching methods. Learning how to learn for you will be totally individual as you would also come with previous training and experience. So, what I'm saying is, the first stage of learning is how to learn with an objective.

What is your objective to learning Wing Chun?

Your answer is then put into the construct and variations of time and detail will vary in each stage depending on this objective. If I was to take everything through each stage once, I have completed learning and start to practise 'how to learn/practice/skill/use/change'. Then we have skill in learning, practice etc.

It's when you find yourself changing how to change you can see the cycle

[couch]

It's quite simple. Learning needs an objective, a goal, and different objectives call for different teaching methods. Learning how to learn for you will be totally individual as you would also come with previous training and experience. So, what I'm saying is, the first stage of learning is how to learn with an objective.

What is your objective to learning Wing Chun?

Your answer is then put into the construct and variations of time and detail will vary in each stage depending on this objective. If I was to take everything through each stage once, I have completed learning and start to practise 'how to learn/practice/skill/use/change'. Then we have skill in learning, practice etc.

It's when you find yourself changing how to change you can see the cycle

Instead of calling 'how to learn'

...could I paraphrase what you said by calling training simply 'Goal-Oriented?'

What is the goal for this time-period. End time-period. Re-evaluate and resume training.

All this is based on the individual, as per what you have said.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

[anerlich]

Wow! The invaluable wikipedia

It's a good general reference. Also, if you don't think it's good enough, you can edit it yourself. No cause for complaint or sarcasm.

Thanks for the research tip

No probs. BTW, if you regard looking at the easiest available reference source as a first step as somehow strange or unsophisticated, I'd question how much you really have to tell me about learning how to learn.

This also is not really what I'm trying to get into here either.

You asked for info about Xingyi and the five element theory. I gave you a starting point.

Basically saying the same thing I have, using the elements as a guide to what attacks/defence to use against what.

I must have missed where you said that. I read the entire thread again and still couldn't see it. YouKnowWho came up with something like that, although his sophisticated five element approach seems to have no answers to wrestlers or judoka.

I will give an example, if you learn to fight (use) without even learning how to learn, what chance have you got? Each is dependent on the next and there are no short cuts imho.

Bleeding obvious IMNSHO. Like too much of what passes for "deep TCMA wisdom".

You might want to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin. By someone who has achieved at world class levels in both chess and taiji push hands competition. Someone who has actually achieved something rather than pontificating in front of a class full of people about ancient cosmological beliefs.

Before the TNF witchhunters jump on this, it actually turns out to be a lot like Greco-Roman wrestling, underhooks, overhooks, throws, etc. Plus the guy also does BJJ with the Machados, which naturally gives him instant cred.

You seeem to want some sort of kudos for this suposedly unique way of approaching WC, but you've given no real detail, nor indication that you completely understand the theory/model that it is allegedly based on. I've seen nothing that you're selling that I would want to buy, so far.

[chusauli]

Perhaps I should look into my smilie use? I have often wondered if they may give out a different meaning than the one I mean... if y'know what I mean?

Spencer,

Thank you for your post.

Just to let you know the rolling eyes thing is quite effeminate - almost gay, to us NY'ers - not that there's anything wrong with being gay (to quote Seinfeld).

Especially if overused as much as you do, it does make people think that you're dizzy or even queer. It gives the impression that you are a queen (not the straight kind).

But to ordinary people, it would probably mean you were being facetious or sarcastic.

LOL! Its actually quite funny! I'm sure it means something else to you Brits.

[chusauli]

You might want to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin. By someone who has achieved at world class levels in both chess and taiji push hands competition. Someone who has actually achieved something rather than pontificating in front of a class full of people.

Before the TNF witchhunters jump on this, it actually turns out to be a lot like Greco-Roman wrestling, underhooks, overhooks, throws, etc. Plus the guy also does BJJ with the Machados, which naturally gives him instant cred.

Just a comment - the book is a gem and very good - although semi-autobiographical. It explains Josh's training methods from chess, to Tai Ji, to BJJ. I'd recommend it as a good read.

[LoneTiger108]

Instead of calling 'how to learn'

...could I paraphrase what you said by calling training simply 'Goal-Oriented?'

What is the goal for this time-period. End time-period. Re-evaluate and resume training.

All this is based on the individual, as per what you have said.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

Well, yes, in terms of having goals that is what learning how to learn is about, but that also delves into practise, skill etc as they're all goal orientated. That said, IF you're the type to respond to goals, then that way is good for you. Question is then, what goals? And what if I am not goal orientated? How to learn then?

If we are to look at Wing Chun, how do we measure ourselves to this? Why not talk more within the areas of Form, Equipment, Interaction, Weaponry and Study?

[LoneTiger108]

You might want to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin. By someone who has achieved at world class levels in both chess and taiji push hands competition. Someone who has actually achieved something rather than pontificating in front of a class full of people about ancient cosmological beliefs.

FWIW I never thought I was pontificating, I was just sharing some experience and looking for any helpful advice, which you have offered in the form of books, wikipedia and such. And I do find that helpful.

What I would ask you is who have you met who has done this sort of thing within the training hall? In Wing Chun? Who breaks the style down the way I am illustrating? Who even asks 'why am I learning?' these days?

You seeem to want some sort of kudos for this suposedly unique way of approaching WC, but you've given no real detail, nor indication that you completely understand the theory/model that it is allegedly based on.

I'm definitely not looking for kudos! And on here? Are you sure?? I think we all know the only way we can fully share what we know mano-to-mano, so I'm sorry if I come across as having a lack of knowledge in this field. I've never claimed to be a sage of everything oriental and mystcial dude! Just had the pleasure of learning all this through Wing Chun with a, what I would call, enlightened Sifu. I am always learning and do appreciate good advice and criticism, especially when its well intended.

I've seen nothing that you're selling that I would want to buy, so far.

For the record, I'm not doing any of this to sell anything. Never have done, and never will. I'm not a believer of 'filling a class' with 30 people who don't even know why they're there. Especially if they feel that they are paying me for teaching them. That's just wrong imho.

Now, as many have mentioned to me before, I do promote Lee Shing but again I do not teach the way he taught coz I aint him. If anything I am more like my own Sifu, Joseph Man as it is through his teachings that I grew the way I did. He was never interested in my money either! I also learnt within a team, so my own objective wasn't really an individual one.

So, if you were to learn with the objective of performing, let's say as an old Opera Troupe of 5, you would do a better job if you concentrated on one of the areas I've mentioned. You would share the knowledge with your brothers.

At least for your desired time frame anyway!

[anerlich]

What I would ask you is who have you met who has done this sort of thing within the training hall? In Wing Chun?

Most of the good instructors and coaches I know in various MA and related fields have spent considerable amounts of time analyzing what they do and how best to design curricula and training methods to develop skills, knowledge and understanding in their students as quickly and efficiently as possible. That your experience seems to be different indicates either bad luck on your part, or a need to get out more.

Who breaks the style down the way I am illustrating?

If you are talking about "five elements", apparently nobody. You might regard that as a bad thing, but you haven't given me a good reason to think that anyone who hasn't done what you advocate is necessarily missing out on anything important. Indeed they might be better off avoiding trying to fit a square peg (MA training) into five round holes (the elements).

Who even asks 'why am I learning?' these days?

That's a bit patronizing. Most people I meet who have done MA for a while undertake some degree of self-analysis and introspection, and review their goals and values regularly. If your experience is different, I suggest again that that is bad luck or an indication you need to widen your social circle.

[LoneTiger108]

Most of the good instructors and coaches I know in various MA and related fields have spent considerable amounts of time analyzing what they do and how best to design curricula and training methods to develop skills, knowledge and understanding in their students as quickly and efficiently as possible. That your experience seems to be different indicates either bad luck on your part, or a need to get out more.

I know I need to get out more! Bit of a hermit really and I'm quite happy just being with the family and my kids. I'd never considered the way I've lived and trained as bad luck and I applaud any coach for their refining nature, improving methods and taking students through new doors.

If you are talking about "five elements", apparently nobody.

One of the reasons I posted the topic is to find someone who may recognize what I'm talking about. I still think some do. Although I don't think any have had experience using the elements in this way, maybe. I only have a little experience and am still learning.

Most people I meet who have done MA for a while undertake some degree of self-analysis and introspection, and review their goals and values regularly. If your experience is different, I suggest again that that is bad luck or an indication you need to widen your social circle.

Saying who asks why they're learning was aimed at the beginner really. I mean, it's always good to re-assess where you're at as a martial artist regularly but I was thinking of new people. The total novice in fact, with no martial experience at all.

Why are people, and children, attracted to the martial arts today? And Wing Chun specifically?

Many of the experienced guys I've met already haver their ways, like everyone here really! This was just one of my own that I've found beneficial. So I don't intend to patronize anybody.