Using the Five Elements to teach Wing Chun

[bennyvt]

shinto has nothing to do with taoism. From what I have read ****o is based on the idea that a god and his son came from the sky and made the japanesse people. Hence the two rocks with the special rope joining them. Taoism is a phylosophical idea that eveything is made of two opposing sides.
MY favourite toaist thought. ' what is more important a window or the hole"
Zen or cham in chinese is more of a physics idea. Much like string theory or simply the explation of atoms. We are all the same ( we are all made up of atoms of varying numbers etc.
I always thought of the cirriculum as the forms and exercises, I don't see why yopu would use some stupid thing made up by uneducated people hundreds of years ago when we now fully understand (well not fully but more then them) how to teach or explain things to people. We have basic coaching princibles (body cues, progression timing etc), excercise science (how to get the most out of your body and how it actually works), strength and conditioning (how to train your body using the most effiecent means ie learn guides, periodization etc) and many teaching models to use as opposed to going back to the dark ages.
And you may not realise this but I think they found more then five elements, I had to memorize the first tweenty for my remedial massage diploma and there are alot more if you listen to the people that have gone to school in the last hundred years.

[LoneTiger108]

I always thought of the cirriculum as the forms and exercises, I don't see why yopu would use some stupid thing made up by uneducated people hundreds of years ago when we now fully understand (well not fully but more then them) how to teach or explain things to people. We have basic coaching princibles (body cues, progression timing etc), excercise science (how to get the most out of your body and how it actually works), strength and conditioning (how to train your body using the most effiecent means ie learn guides, periodization etc) and many teaching models to use as opposed to going back to the dark ages.

It's good that you have this view, but I do wonder what other teaching models you have seen in the martial arts? I've always thought of our training as physical alchemy, as we're changing our bodies into a specific 'type' depending on what style we practise. And I have yet to find any modern examples that can match the effect the 5 elements has had on me.

I've said it before, this may just be a personal thing for me.

And you may not realise this but I think they found more then five elements, I had to memorize the first tweenty for my remedial massage diploma and there are alot more if you listen to the people that have gone to school in the last hundred years.

I was wondering who would bring up the Periodic Table! Of course its great to study new things and develop with the times, as I looked into this in GCSE Science too (when I was 16!) But the 5 elements fit into Wing Chun the way I've been taught it, the periodic table does not! Far too complex!

[Hardwork108]

It's good that you have this view, but I do wonder what other teaching models you have seen in the martial arts? I've always thought of our training as physical alchemy, as we're changing our bodies into a specific 'type' depending on what style we practise. And I have yet to find any modern examples that can match the effect the 5 elements has had on me.

I've said it before, this may just be a personal thing for me.



I was wondering who would bring up the Periodic Table! Of course its great to study new things and develop with the times, as I looked into this in GCSE Science too (when I was 16!) But the 5 elements fit into Wing Chun the way I've been taught it, the periodic table does not! Far too complex!

It is pointless Spencer. None these people have a point of reference. I really wish that they did, but they don´t.

On the plus side, this thread taught me that the Lee Shing lineage of Wing Chun makes use of the Five Element theory, just like other other kung fu styles (with their own distinct signatures), that were founded and developed by masters who apparently did not know as much kung fu as this forum´s posters and resident kung fu "masters".

Anyway, my personal thanks to you for shining more light about your lineage, I really wish that I had been exposed to your lineage when I was in London.

[bennyvt]

so because we don't use the same terms as they did hundreds of years ago we are all stupid, dude, are you joking. Having to use that means that you are obviously just rote learning what your teacher has told you. You haven't learnt ****. Teaching is being able to explain in ways that you actually understand. Ill use exercise sience, sports psychology and coaching models that have been developed up to the last few years and has made athletes massively better then the athletes hundreds of years ago. You can use the same stupid crap that all the people that thought dragons are real use. SWEET.
See the differnce is I learnt it in a tradition sense, hour forms, doing slt and associated drills for 8-10 hours a day for about two-three months before
I learnt dan chi etc. But I went back to school and found that all the mystical crap was easily explained and could be improved on. I found it really interesting trying to make the warm up more specific, invent VT drills for speed, agility co-ordination, do biomechanical anaylisis of the forms and exercises to design a periodic plan to make my train more detailed and specific.
But yeh Im the idiot and you are really good cause you explain it like a guy that lived a hundred years ago that had stuff all education and probably was lucky to read.
**** you people are funny

[Hardwork108]

so because we don't use the same terms as they did hundreds of years ago we are all stupid, dude, are you joking. Having to use that means that you are obviously just rote learning what your teacher has told you. You haven't learnt ****. Teaching is being able to explain in ways that you actually understand. Ill use exercise sience, sports psychology and coaching models that have been developed up to the last few years and has made athletes massively better then the athletes hundreds of years ago. You can use the same stupid crap that all the people that thought dragons are real use. SWEET.
See the differnce is I learnt it in a tradition sense, hour forms, doing slt and associated drills for 8-10 hours a day for about two-three months before
I learnt dan chi etc. But I went back to school and found that all the mystical crap was easily explained and could be improved on. I found it really interesting trying to make the warm up more specific, invent VT drills for speed, agility co-ordination, do biomechanical anaylisis of the forms and exercises to design a periodic plan to make my train more detailed and specific.
But yeh Im the idiot and you are really good cause you explain it like a guy that lived a hundred years ago that had stuff all education and probably was lucky to read.
**** you people are funny

Yep, you have absolutely no idea, but hey, if you are happy with what you do, then I am happy for you.

[LoneTiger108]

so because we don't use the same terms as they did hundreds of years ago we are all stupid, dude, are you joking. Having to use that means that you are obviously just rote learning what your teacher has told you. You haven't learnt ****.

No, I've just learnt differently than you. And I don't have to use anything, I just find the 5 elements an excellent way to introduce these older methods like Yum Yeurng and Bagua to new people. No Mystical stuff. Just good old common sense.

Teaching is being able to explain in ways that you actually understand. Ill use exercise sience, sports psychology and coaching models that have been developed up to the last few years and has made athletes massively better then the athletes hundreds of years ago. You can use the same stupid crap that all the people that thought dragons are real use. SWEET.

A bit ignorant to past stuffs are we? FWIW I agree. Teaching is all about improving methods an teaching in a way people understand. That's what I and my Sifu have done, and Lee Shing too. Teach a mechanic as a mechanic and a doctor as a doctor. Question is, how to teach a Martial Artist?!

See the differnce is I learnt it in a tradition sense, hour forms, doing slt and associated drills for 8-10 hours a day for about two-three months before I learnt dan chi etc. But I went back to school and found that all the mystical crap was easily explained and could be improved on.

No. The difference is you wasted your time learning this mystcal stuff for hours on end, and when you encountered something better you switched your attitudes and training habits. No biggie. Everybody does that. BUT I have had no need to because I feel that the way I learnt was pretty close to ideal. No mysticism at all and no secret recipe.

FWIW My Sifu has students who have returned to him now that trained much differently back in 1978, man, they even train differently than I did in the nineties!But if they stay long enough they will see the same as I do. Freedom to teach what and how you want!

When I was teaching with him I never had the same warm up, I was researching different ways all the time. When my Sifu learnt he used his SLT for the warm up, so don't think that us oldskoolers can't change.

[LoneTiger108]

It is pointless Spencer. None these people have a point of reference. I really wish that they did, but they don´t.

On the plus side, this thread taught me that the Lee Shing lineage of Wing Chun makes use of the Five Element theory, just like other other kung fu styles (with their own distinct signatures), that were founded and developed by masters who apparently did not know as much kung fu as this forum´s posters and resident kung fu "masters".

Anyway, my personal thanks to you for shining more light about your lineage, I really wish that I had been exposed to your lineage when I was in London.

When you return to London we can always hook up, as you know you would be welcome at my Studio anytime dude.

I actually think some people will understand what I'm saying, but as you mention maybe the more traditional martial artists will recognize this more. I guess if you haven't learnt your art line by line then this may not make sense, but the 5 elements are quite prominent in the Wing Chun I've been exposed to. I thought sharing was a good reason to post here, but again I have been proven wrong.

[bennyvt]

big difference between not understanding and thinking it is an out dated way of explaining things.
I learnt no mystical crap, I learnt the way they learnt in YIP's, WSL, Barry schools. Barry, as a westener uses normal terms to explain everything. You don't have to use the same terms, no one on here does, but if you look at it you should be able to explain it use the terms most people will understand. If I can use it and know what it is for then why do I have to explain it like an ancient chinese guy.
See my teach didnt teach any mystical stuff, being a card carrying sceptic and biochemist, by school I mean I went and learn strength and condidtioning, basic sports psycology etc. Then I understood what he was saying. It was only when I got on here that people have to use all the chinese terms to explain something that if they truely understood then they could explain it in their own words. Least hendrik is chinese so when he can have the excuse of not having english as his primary language. Most people just say the words that their teacher says.

[LoneTiger108]

If I can use it and know what it is for then why do I have to explain it like an ancient chinese guy.

... Most people just say the words that their teacher says.

What can you use exactly? You mean you've been passed the physical knowledge but have no interest in learning the culture behind the style?

Well, FWIW Wing Chun is a Chinese Art, so to say that the Chinese isn't required to me is just a little narrow minded. Believe me, I have tried both teaching in English, with numerics (point sydtem) and in Chinese and in all honesty, because I'm interested in teaching the coach, Chinese is a must. For the displays and such the numerics works very well, and for a beginners class it will mainly be in English. With no mention of 5 elements at all!

On the final point, the only 'words' I use that are directly linked to my teacher are the words that were written in the curriculum and kuit. I have my own personality, as does everyone.

[Hardwork108]

When you return to London we can always hook up, as you know you would be welcome at my Studio anytime dude.

Thank you Spencer. I really appreciate your words.

I actually think some people will understand what I'm saying, but as you mention maybe the more traditional martial artists will recognize this more. I guess if you haven't learnt your art line by line then this may not make sense, but the 5 elements are quite prominent in the Wing Chun I've been exposed to. I thought sharing was a good reason to post here, but again I have been proven wrong.

I am guessing that there may be a few here who do not post but do read and have genuine interest in the TCMAs that will appreciate some of the info that you and a few other genuine TCMA-ists are posting here. So, all is not lost.

[Hardwork108]

big difference between not understanding and thinking it is an out dated way of explaining things.
I learnt no mystical crap, I learnt the way they learnt in YIP's, WSL, Barry schools. Barry, as a westener uses normal terms to explain everything. You don't have to use the same terms, no one on here does, but if you look at it you should be able to explain it use the terms most people will understand. If I can use it and know what it is for then why do I have to explain it like an ancient chinese guy.
See my teach didnt teach any mystical stuff, being a card carrying sceptic and biochemist, by school I mean I went and learn strength and condidtioning, basic sports psycology etc. Then I understood what he was saying. It was only when I got on here that people have to use all the chinese terms to explain something that if they truely understood then they could explain it in their own words. Least hendrik is chinese so when he can have the excuse of not having english as his primary language. Most people just say the words that their teacher says.

If I were you and some of the other modernist "debunkers" in this forum, I would research concepts such as the Five Element theory. After all even during their development and evolution in old China, there were those fighters who managed without mastering and using this theory, hence one must wonder why this methodology is around today. What made it survive? Why are there masters who swear by it?

All I am saying is that just because in the limited TCMA experience of some, such theories sound out of this world, or "irrelevant", it does not mean that they are.

IMHO, those with limited TCMA knowledge should research further and perhaps look outside of their kwoons, instead of dismissing theories such as the Five Elements........

[YouKnowWho]

instead of dismissing theories such as the Five Elements........

The 5 elements theory is very useful. It can make a fight "simple". You analysis your opponent's fighting strategy first, you then adjust your fighting strategy according to it.

[Hardwork108]

The 5 elements theory is very useful. It can make a fight "simple". You analysis your opponent's fighting strategy first, you then adjust your fighting strategy according to it.

Agreed.

Many people who post here are not familiar with such theories. They think that these are "fantasies" or "useless". No one seems to want to admit that perhaps there are theories and concepts in the TCMAs that they don't understand, or can't explain with their limited TCMA knowledge. So, it is always easier for such people to dismiss such theories as "outdated" or "irrelevant".

This is very unfortunate as they are missing out on very useful, not to mention, powerful methodologies.

[YouKnowWho]

If you understand the "5 elements" theory, you can make a fight simple and end it quickly by using the least amount of effort.

[Hardwork108]

If you understand the "5 elements" theory, you can make a fight simple and end it quickly by using the least amount of effort.

Agreed 100%!