WCK facing

[Phil Redmond]

Cheung sees WCK as a form of kickboxing, so it is not surprising that he doesn't advocate square-on facing. Square-on facing is essential for inside/contact fighting, not the outside game.

Your comment was expected and shows how little you know. Anything outside of your realm of understanding must be wrong, right?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't read his posts since I put him on IGNORE quite some time ago, but since Phil Redmond just quoted him, I see yet once again the garbage that Terence Niehoff tries to pass along as fact.

Yes, IGNORE is your friend.

[YungChun]

Anytime Cheung does his super hyper speed chain punches he has to face and does. Unless anyone cares to argue that he is changing his lead 8-12 times per second..

Also it seems pretty clear from just about any of his vids that his version (what he does in his vids) of Chun, many of the moves are done from a longer distance than most other Chun--at times so far out no real contact could be made.. Perhaps the source of why what he does is seen by some as longer range--since that's where he normally is.. Of course one can only go by the "demos" seen.

[Phil Redmond]

You must have learned that history is made by the conquerers and popluar folklore. Which means it's not always factual. You rant about what WC "is" and "isn't" based on what little you know of it and what you've heard and been taught. You write as if you were present during the development of Wing Chun. I've been doing martial arts since 1966 and Wing Chun and other Chinese martial arts since 1970. I took the time to study Cantonese at the University level and to emerse myself in Chinese MA culture. All that still doesn't make me an expert on every aspect of martial arts and WC in particular. I don't have the Holy Grail of WC knowledge. You write as if you do. You resort to negative criticisms of what of what myself and others do without posting a clip defending what you do. And please don't give me your usual go to a gym chant. I want YOU to show me how Wing Chun should be done.
I'm not a lawyer but I work doing research for one. Is the word discovery applicable here (a category of procedural devices employed by a party to a civil or criminal action, prior to trial, to require the adverse party to disclose information that is essential for the preparation of the requesting party's case and that the other party alone knows or possesses)? If I'm wrong please school me.
Since you talk as if you have the correct information please disclose the correct methodology. I'm not too proud to learn from anyone.
Until you show me at least a little something of what you do I'll consider you a wannabe omniscient, hateful, pathetic, sad, jock riding, trash talking, pseudo (I have some more colorful words that I won't use here) martial artist.
Please excuse iPhone keyboard typos.

[Phil Redmond]

Anytime Cheung does his super hyper speed chain punches he has to face and does. Unless anyone cares to argue that he is changing his lead 8-12 times per second..

Also it seems pretty clear from just about any of his vids that his version (what he does in his vids) of Chun, many of the moves are done from a longer distance than most other Chun--at times so far out no real contact could be made.. Perhaps the source of why what he does is seen by some as longer range--since that's where he normally is.. Of course one can only go by the "demos" seen.

I see that you're Moy Yat lineage. When I was studying with Moy Yat at his apartment near Prospect Park he always gave Ah Hing the utmost respect. He even told me personally that Ah Hing was the best WC fighter under Yip Man. According to Victor Moy Yat told him the same thing. I introduced Moy Yat to Ah Hing (William Cheung Cheuk Hing) at dinner in NY's Chinatown in 1984. Moy Yat's top students were there including Pete Pajil. Sifu Pajil's school in Philadelphia is near me. I've visited his Mo Guan a few times and he is a real gentleman. He and I understand the relationship between Moy Yat and my Sifu. We never use disparaging remarks about either Sifu.
I'm in the "City" on weekends. Maybe we can meet so that I can show you the TWC theory of facing.
I just PM'd you my cell so that we can get together sometime and discuss things like grown men. I'll be waiting for your call.

[t_niehoff]

Your comment was expected and shows how little you know. Anything outside of your realm of understanding must be wrong, right?

No. It's obvious that Cheung has tried to "modify" what WCK he learned from TST and Yip to "fit" a predominantly outside (range) fighting game.

[t_niehoff]

I see that you're Moy Yat lineage. When I was studying with Moy Yat at his apartment near Prospect Park he always gave Ah Hing the utmost respect. He even told me personally that Ah Hing was the best WC fighter under Yip Man. According to Victor Moy Yat told him the same thing. I introduced Moy Yat to Ah Hing (William Cheung Cheuk Hing) at dinner in NY's Chinatown in 1984. Moy Yat's top students were there including Pete Pajil. Sifu Pajil's school in Philadelphia is near me. I've visited his Mo Guan a few times and he is a real gentleman. He and I understand the relationship between Moy Yat and my Sifu. We never use disparaging remarks about either Sifu.
I'm in the "City" on weekends. Maybe we can meet so that I can show you the TWC theory of facing.
I just PM'd you my cell so that we can get together sometime and discuss things like grown men. I'll be waiting for your call.

Phil, ALL any of Yip's guys did when fighting was chain punch up the middle. That's it. Look at the videos of the rooftop fights -- that's what Cheung did. He may have been very good at THAT, but that's it. And they were only fighting other teenagers who were equally unskilled.

You accept these STORIES because you want to believe. Why do you even need to believe?

What you won't accept -- because if you do it will completely undermine your whole world-view, your status, etc. -- is that skill in fighting comes ONLY from practicing fighting (the amount of quality sparring you do), and that you are only as good as your training/sparring partners. Once you realize that, then you will know that none of those guys COULD have been very good -- they simply didn't put in the right kind and the amount of work needed to develop even competent fighting skills.

And, if there was any question, the Boztepe fight put an end to that -- it proved he was just another TMA instructor that had no real fighting skill. And his "judo chop" shoot defense proves that he teaches nonsense.

[t_niehoff]

No offense taken. But look at it this way: he's avoiding the head on force by doing a small side step as the punch comes in on him. It all depends upon the commitment of the attacker. The more the attacker tries to penetrate with that punch, the more unnecessary it is to "step in and try to take ground" - and a simple side step will do the job.

And that "technique" simply won't work in fighting.

[goju]

Phil, ALL any of Yip's guys did when fighting was chain punch up the middle. That's it. Look at the videos of the rooftop fights -- that's what Cheung did. He may have been very good at THAT, but that's it. And they were only fighting other teenagers who were equally unskilled.

You accept these STORIES because you want to believe. Why do you even need to believe?

What you won't accept -- because if you do it will completely undermine your whole world-view, your status, etc. -- is that skill in fighting comes ONLY from practicing fighting (the amount of quality sparring you do), and that you are only as good as your training/sparring partners. Once you realize that, then you will know that none of those guys COULD have been very good -- they simply didn't put in the right kind and the amount of work needed to develop even competent fighting skills.

And, if there was any question, the Boztepe fight put an end to that -- it proved he was just another TMA instructor that had no real fighting skill. And his "judo chop" shoot defense proves that he teaches nonsense.

but why is that Cheung has produced quite a few guys who compete and win mind you and you for all your knowledge of how to do it right are stuck in a rec center training with god knows who in god knows what?

Sorry couldnt help myself since we are talking about beliefs here one would tend to sensibly believe the guy who shows his stuff and has produced competitors of some caliber over a guy who who hangs around in a rec center flipping his nunchucks around in the corner or something of the sort.

I really like the religious anaolgies used on this forum because as anyone knows there are numerous of the faithful who like to preach and convert people to what they believe is the true path of god. Often these people are frauds or crazy and provide nothing good or useful to the gullible who flock to them after they entice them with baseless claims.

[t_niehoff]

^ You are a troll. You haven't learned WCK, you don't practice WCK, yet post on a WCK forum. Go train WCK. You are a troll.

[k gledhill]

And that "technique" simply won't work in fighting.

So if a guy charges me and i side step in a face off with no contact ...it wont work ?

We train to angle back and to the sides for this so we can maintain facing and make a counter attack with punching force....seems like your unaware of this .
It only takes a few minutes to teach this and show its effectiveness. Comes from a Knife idea of tactical safe zones.....

Ask yourself, would you rather be in front of a guy charging at you with leading hand to grab so he can hit you with the other hand or shift so he had trouble facing and hitting you in balance with sufficient force ? simple question.

Would you prepare to stand behind a cape held for a potential charge from a bull ?

stay in the traffic lane, facing oncoming cars ?

Stay in front of a 250lb guy who is head down try to tackle you on a football field ?

wow thanks for the insight into your way of fighting

[LoneTiger108]

That is "element" as in component, feature, etc. Pretty normal use of English. You might as well critique his use of punctuation marks because he seems to use the same symbols that you do.

BTW, Terence's use of the word "element" on these forums pre-dates yours by a few years.

TN
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=102

LT108
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...0&postcount=49

I never thought it was a competition But just looking at my post here in 2007 I distincively mention the 5 elements, but T's post in 2005 just mentions part of training as an 'element', not mentioning the 5 elements at all!

I have yet to see anyone mention the 5 elements in Wing Chun like I have tried to explore on another thread. And as someone else posted, I probably will never see it mentioned again!

[LoneTiger108]

As for this thread, I have to point out that there is a distinct difference in the term 'chiu yin' (facing) 'gin san' (frontal body/square-on)

It seems that people are confusing them both, as I can maintain chiu yin while attacking you from my gin (frontal), pin (angled) or juk (side) san (body) alignments. Only the type of triangle changes from equilateral to scalene, but they're all chiu yin.

[JPinAZ]

So if a guy charges me and i side step in a face off with no contact ...it wont work ?

We train to angle back and to the sides for this so we can maintain facing and make a counter attack with punching force....seems like your unaware of this .
It only takes a few minutes to teach this and show its effectiveness. Comes from a Knife idea of tactical safe zones.....

Ask yourself, would you rather be in front of a guy charging at you with leading hand to grab so he can hit you with the other hand or shift so he had trouble facing and hitting you in balance with sufficient force ? simple question.

Would you prepare to stand behind a cape held for a potential charge from a bull ?

stay in the traffic lane, facing oncoming cars ?

Stay in front of a 250lb guy who is head down try to tackle you on a football field ?

wow thanks for the insight into your way of fighting

While I totally disagree with T that what GM Cheung does in that clip won't work (it will, many fighters step off the line of attack and then come in), I would say it's not my preferred method from a WC perspective.

Your analogy of standing in front of raging bulls, cars, and rushing lineman isn't even the same ballpark as having to deal with a straight jab. This sounds very inexperienced to me (no offense). Are you saying that you can't deal with a straight stiff lead without having to run away from it?!?!
This is taught from day one where I train - stand your ground (meaning, don't run away from the attack, side step needlessly, etc) and dominate the centerline position. Only when this fails must you 'change the line' with angled footwork.
If I can deal with the attack with proper body mechanics & structure, leverage and energy usage, why the hell would I need to run from it??

BTW, in case you didn't know, there is a big difference between a strong stiff lead and a bull/car/bus, etc. Even a good skilled boxers' stiff lead, it's just not the same

[kung fu fighter]

I don't see any evidence of this "elastic recoil". If I rotate with a punch, my body doesn't automatically return to square-on, does yours?

Then you are not doing it correctly, you have to keep the feet pigeon toed while twisting at the hip