WCK facing

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So if a guy charges me and i side step in a face off with no contact ...it wont work?...... We train to angle back and to the sides for this so we can maintain facing and make a counter attack with punching force....seems like your unaware of this...Ask yourself, would you rather be in front of a guy charging at you with leading hand to grab so he can hit you with the other hand or shift so he had trouble facing and hitting you in balance with sufficient force? simple question." (kgledhill)

........................................

***GOOD POST, Kevin.

And as for JP's point about not backing away from a stiff jab, true, but it's best to cut punch through it, or pak it, or whatever, from a slight angle - if at all possible.

The only time you can completely hold your ground and do these things sucessfully is if you are considerably stronger than the opponent.

So you make contact with mon sao, a punch, a pak, or whatever and let your contact reflexes (developed through chi sao and related drills) tell you what you need to do, how and when you should angle, what footwork patterns to use, and so on.

And of course your visuals especially need to be on mark when there is no contact (or bridging) going on.

[sihing]

"So if a guy charges me and i side step in a face off with no contact ...it wont work?...... We train to angle back and to the sides for this so we can maintain facing and make a counter attack with punching force....seems like your unaware of this...Ask yourself, would you rather be in front of a guy charging at you with leading hand to grab so he can hit you with the other hand or shift so he had trouble facing and hitting you in balance with sufficient force? simple question."

........................................

***GOOD POST, Kevin.

And as for JP's point about not backing away from a stiff jab, true, but it's best to cut punch through it, or pak it, or whatever, from a slight angle - if at all possible.

The only time you can completely hold your ground and do these things sucessfully is if you are considerably stronger than the opponent.

So you make contact with mon sao, a punch, a pak, or whatever and let your contact reflexes (developed through chi sao and related drills) tell you what you need to do, how and when you should angle, what footwork patterns to use, and so on.

And of course your visuals especially need to be on mark when there is no contact (or bridging) going on.

Intersting post.

I agree with the idea of "cutting" lines from the outside. I've personally found that when one "cuts the line" while going forward the slight angle you describe above is already gained, it's a really tight angle. The thing about moving sideways first, then in, is that it is two actions, not one. In this case it would would be just better to strike from that sideways angle and not try to go in and hit then, as your hit is now behind in timing, you would have to have a great speed advantage vs your opponent to pull this off, trying to get two actions in before a strike is thrown. But if you throw the cutting strike as you coming in, it's all in one action. This is only achieved when the structure is developed and the mechanics are right, as the angle is already gain from your facing and stepping in practice. Also with the side stepping (and I found this happening allot in my TWC days), your angle is really severe, lessen the striking target as you are now right a the side of the guy, with maybe the ribs as a targets or side of the head, it's easier for them to cover up from that severe an angle IMO. Gary Lam would say this angle is more used for hiding, or closing (setting up standing grappling), rather than a striking angle.

As for your comment about being stronger than your opponent, well someone can physically be stronger than you (=he can lift more weight than you in a weight room), but that doesn't always translate to a fighting situation. If he's using his shoulders to support his punch, that is weak, as compared to someone that is using a connected structure, with power from the legs coming into it. Most people cannot bench press or military press as much as they can squat, learn to use that support and power and you have fighting strength in a small package.

James

P.S. Not saying side stepping is out of the question, as of course you may need to do just this, but as JP said you don't do it just to do it, one has to feel the need to do it when necessary.
Generally in WSL line, the Toi ma or pushed step back is done at a tight angle, it's back and slightly sideways, not a straight side step, keeping the angle tight, and the striking targets(torso) in range.

[Wayfaring]

Intersting post.

I agree with the idea of "cutting" lines from the outside. I've personally found that when one "cuts the line" while going forward the slight angle you describe above is already gained, it's a really tight angle. The thing about moving sideways first, then in, is that it is two actions, not one. In this case it would would be just better to strike from that sideways angle and not try to go in and hit then, as your hit is now behind in timing, you would have to have a great speed advantage vs your opponent to pull this off, trying to get two actions in before a strike is thrown. But if you throw the cutting strike as you coming in, it's all in one action. This is only achieved when the structure is developed and the mechanics are right, as the angle is already gain from your facing and stepping in practice. Also with the side stepping (and I found this happening allot in my TWC days), your angle is really severe, lessen the striking target as you are now right a the side of the guy, with maybe the ribs as a targets or side of the head, it's easier for them to cover up from that severe an angle IMO. Gary Lam would say this angle is more used for hiding, or closing (setting up standing grappling), rather than a striking angle.

As for your comment about being stronger than your opponent, well someone can physically be stronger than you (=he can lift more weight than you in a weight room), but that doesn't always translate to a fighting situation. If he's using his shoulders to support his punch, that is weak, as compared to someone that is using a connected structure, with power from the legs coming into it. Most people cannot bench press or military press as much as they can squat, learn to use that support and power and you have fighting strength in a small package.

James

P.S. Not saying side stepping is out of the question, as of course you may need to do just this, but as JP said you don't do it just to do it, one has to feel the need to do it when necessary.
Generally in WSL line, the Toi ma or pushed step back is done at a tight angle, it's back and slightly sideways, not a straight side step, keeping the angle tight, and the striking targets(torso) in range.

On the strategy with stiff jabs - this is a fighters skill. You can do a number of things:

1) Avoid it with footwork
2) Avoid it with head movment / slip it
3) Diffuse it or absorb it

Good boxers employ these strategies. I think that good WCK boxers would employ similar strategies, as there is a limited amount of things to do that are right in a live environment. I also have the opinion that which of the 3 you employ are more a matter of "feel" or "body knowledge" in live environments.

[Wayfaring]

Your analogy of standing in front of raging bulls, cars, and rushing lineman isn't even the same ballpark as having to deal with a straight jab. This sounds very inexperienced to me (no offense). Are you saying that you can't deal with a straight stiff lead without having to run away from it?!?!

3 tactics available without running away:

1) Stuff it with structure - boxers do this too.
2) Slip - it's available to avoid contact with movement w/o giving up ground
3) Strike first, at a better angle, or harder.

This is taught from day one where I train - stand your ground (meaning, don't run away from the attack, side step needlessly, etc) and dominate the centerline position. Only when this fails must you 'change the line' with angled footwork.
If I can deal with the attack with proper body mechanics & structure, leverage and energy usage, why the hell would I need to run from it??

IMO a jab is a little longer range usually, and it's not necessary to run from it, simply ensure you are covered (high gate covered) and your opponent can't advance in on the lines the jab opens up.

BTW, in case you didn't know, there is a big difference between a strong stiff lead and a bull/car/bus, etc. Even a good skilled boxers' stiff lead, it's just not the same

Agreed.

[YungChun]

When I was studying with Moy Yat at his apartment near Prospect Park he always gave Ah Hing the utmost respect. He even told me personally that Ah Hing was the best WC fighter under Yip Man. According to Victor Moy Yat told him the same thing. I introduced Moy Yat to Ah Hing (William Cheung Cheuk Hing) at dinner in NY's Chinatown in 1984.

So MoyYat told you William was the best fighter and you introduced MoyYat to William later in 1984????

Well I'll tell you what MoyYat told me about William:

He told me that William, who was welcomed into his school as a Brother and friend, proceeded to peddle his line of TWC superiority BS to MoyYat's students in an attempt to steal them away from MoyYat.. William apparently succeeded in at least a couple of cases.. As a result Sifu seemed somewhat hurt by this and I never saw nor heard of William returning afterward..

You should also know that over the years the Moy curriculum continued to evolve and improve..

MoyYat and Mickey Chan (DaiSiHing and a very bright guy--Chemical Engineer by trade) took a painstaking second look at everything in the art, how it was taught, researching all aspects as was possible.. In effect they took it apart and put it (the core curriculum) back together again, in an attempt to improve and pass the art to students more effectively..

This no doubt resulted in an improved curriculum and learning experience for students as time went on.. Personally, I have no complaints and I am proud to have had access to what was a great learning experience from my time with the family... Many years later I continued to learn on my own but I consider myself fortunate to have learned the base of Chun training I did--and especially so when seeing the majority of what else is out there..

[sihing]

On the strategy with stiff jabs - this is a fighters skill. You can do a number of things:

1) Avoid it with footwork
2) Avoid it with head movment / slip it
3) Diffuse it or absorb it

Good boxers employ these strategies. I think that good WCK boxers would employ similar strategies, as there is a limited amount of things to do that are right in a live environment. I also have the opinion that which of the 3 you employ are more a matter of "feel" or "body knowledge" in live environments.

IMO out of all the choices listed above, #3 is the hardest to learn. You generally can't successfully diffuse or absorb a good punch with no learned structure, or will a stiff arm out there do?

Everything in fighting is based on a variety of variables, none of which can be discussed on a forum with total understanding by all, all one can do is explain the concept behind what one is doing or training. One can of course just move away whenever someone begins to attack you, this is always an option. But IMO its the easiest of all to do, once one gains understanding and ability with distance control and improves their perception skills(of course depending on the skills of the attacker as well, I'm sure Pacman's jab is not as easy as other's jabs..).

In WC we generally want to get in close, crowd or jam the guy up so his structure & ability to attack is effected. So if you move away upon being attacked this is anti WC tactics, so why practice WC then? IMO most would be surprised if they were attacked while attacking, and can work if the timing is right combined with the WC body behind it. So for me this is what I practice and the skill I want to achieve, attacking the attach rather than running. WC requires courage to enter the zone.

gotta run..lol

James

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, ALL any of Yip's guys did when fighting was chain punch up the middle. That's it. Look at the videos of the rooftop fights -- that's what Cheung did. He may have been very good at THAT, but that's it. And they were only fighting other teenagers who were equally unskilled.

Not all were kids. Trust me. He even fought in Australia defending the local Chinese community there. Ask Hawkins Cheung about one incident on OZ.

And, if there was any question, the Boztepe fight put an end to that -- it proved he was just another TMA instructor that had no real fighting skill......

That's a weak argument. First of all the footage was edited. A least that's what Inside Kung Fu said after checking it out back then. Also, let's say he lost the so called "fight". That proves nothing. MMA guys lose fights. Boxers lose fights. Does that mean they can't fight? You called someone a troll here yet you live in a glass house.

[Phil Redmond]

So MoyYat told you William was the best fighter and you introduced MoyYat to William later in 1984????

I arranged the meeting, introduced whatever. MY chose the restaurant.
Yes, I heard that from Moy Yat's mouth when his school was called Ding Leg at his Brooklyn apartment.
Only then I didn't know who Ah Hing was.

Well I'll tell you what MoyYat told me about William:

He told me that William, who was welcomed into his school as a Brother and friend, proceeded to peddle his line of TWC superiority BS to MoyYat's students in an attempt to steal them away from MoyYat.. William apparently succeeded in at least a couple of cases.. As a result Sifu seemed somewhat hurt by this and I never saw nor heard of William returning afterward..

I went to the East Broadway school after dinner with Moy Yat and William Cheung. Pete Pajil was also there. We took pictures and the 2 Sifus talked a while. Moy always referred to William Cheung as Si-Hing the whole time. There was no animosity during the whole event. I left with William Cheung after the meeting and none of what you say happened.
p.s. you never hear me talking disparagingly about any of my WC seniors (and I know some not so nice things about a few of them). But that's just me.

btw, Are you a Sifu? If so it's a sad state of affairs when a Sifu writes disparaging remarks about a senior on a public forum for all, including his students to see. But I guess we WC people are known to talk and trash each other but don't even try to produce good fighters.

[YungChun]

I left with William Cheung after the meeting and none of what you say happened.

So?

Who said when this happened? I'm telling you what I was told.. Some students obviously did "switch"... lol

p.s. you never hear me talking disparagingly about any of my WC seniors (and I know some not so nice things about a few of them). But that's just me.

And you've never heard me speak ill of my 'seniors' either--I don't consider Cheung my senior..

btw, Are you a Sifu? If so it's a sad state of affairs when a Sifu writes disparaging remarks about a senior on a public forum for all, including his students to see. But I guess we WC people are known to talk and trash each other but don't even try to produce good fighters.

Not sure what all that is supposed to mean or that I care.. Suffice it to say I simply relate what I was told..and my experience..

More Chun "seniors" should be trying to train their students realistically and I advocate doing same.

[SAAMAG]

And that "technique" simply won't work in fighting.

Sidestepping a punch doesn't work? Really? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what a sidestep is in this case....but why is it then when I slip/side step against straight punches it works nearly every time? Why is it that tactic is taught in almost every striking art known to man?

[Phil Redmond]

So? Who said when this happened? I'm telling you what I was told.. Some students obviously did "switch"... lol

The fact that it didn't happen is what is important. Like I said. I was there during that "only" meeting. People are going to "switch" regardless. It happens in all MAs

And you've never heard me speak ill of my 'seniors' either--I don't consider Cheung my senior..

Well, Moy Yat did. I'm not sure if you were a student or grand student of MY but that makes Cheung your senior whether you like it or not. One of the things that Sifu Pete Pajil and I have in common is that we understand the familial relationships in our WC family.

[SAAMAG]

I think that's one of the problems with my culture. The extremes of "saving face" and the whole "showing respect" to seniors simply because they were there first.

A senior is someone in my definition as someone who has more skill and experience then me in the chosen field of study. If one of those two elements is missing--then they are my peer or subordinate.

[YungChun]

The fact that it didn't happen is what is important. Like I said. I was there during that "only" meeting. People are going to "switch" regardless. It happens in all MAs

It didn't happen when at dinner? Again so what?

It's what I was told.. I believe it and I am saying that.......

I'm sure I'm not the only one who knew this and whether you already knew or don't accept it as true is not my concern.

Well, Moy Yat did. I'm not sure if you were a student or grand student of MY but that makes Cheung your senior whether you like it or not. One of the things that Sifu Pete Pajil and I have in common is that we understand the familial relationships in our WC family.

Given the current state of affairs I follow my own rules not yours not some unwritten code; The truth is the light.

[t_niehoff]

Not all were kids. Trust me. He even fought in Australia defending the local Chinese community there. Ask Hawkins Cheung about one incident on OZ.

More STORIES? Phil, why do you HAVE to rely on STORIES as THE ONLY EVIDENCE YOU HAVE that Cheung had decent fighting skill? Doesn't that tell you something. Doesn't that show you how WEAK your evidence is? I don't need to rely on stories to KNOW the skill level of my MMA coach or my BJJ instructor.

That's a weak argument. First of all the footage was edited. A least that's what Inside Kung Fu said after checking it out back then. Also, let's say he lost the so called "fight". That proves nothing. MMA guys lose fights. Boxers lose fights. Does that mean they can't fight? You called someone a troll here yet you live in a glass house.

Of course losing a fight doesn't mean you don't have skill -- depending on both HOW you lose and WHO you lose to. And -- you continue to use this false argument -- Chueng is not like a boxer or MMA fighter in that we have proof they have fighting skill because we can SEE for ourselves their other fights, we can see how they won and who they fought.

You've really been brainwashed, haven't you?

[t_niehoff]

Sidestepping a punch doesn't work? Really? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what a sidestep is in this case....but why is it then when I slip/side step against straight punches it works nearly every time? Why is it that tactic is taught in almost every striking art known to man?

The sidestep can work (though the way Cheung does it is poor). But the technique shown wasn't simply a sidestep, was it?

The technique shown was a lop sao where Cheung GRABBED THE PUNCH OUT OF THE AIR and held onto it!

I guess all you people who think that technique will work spar with people who throw really slow, weak punches or just punch and hold their arm out there (like the stooge in the video).

Seriously, does anyone here ever f#cking spar? Because anyone who didn't recognize immediately what nonsense this was simply hasn't put in very much work.