Sticking Hands

[anerlich]

I've heard better comebacks from mute, intellectually disabled chimps.

Sounds like someone needs to widen his social circle.

[k gledhill]

It appears you aren't very bright. It's not difficult to understand.

Chi sao is an unrealistic exercise/drill that is a learning platform (to learn the contact tools of WCK). But it doesn't develop fighting skill (the ability to use those tools in fighting). That only comes from fighting.

Chi sao is a contact/attached exercise. Since it is attached, where we maintain sustained contact, it is grappling. Not a form of grappling, not a style of grappling, but grappling -- that also involves striking. And since WCK's method is to control while striking, it makes sense that you'd have a teaching platform to learn controlling while striking.

And chi sao, like all grappling, is primarily concerned with controlling the opponent.

Lop sao is likewise a grappling move (you grab and pull) where you control the opponent to set up your striking. Gosh, what a surprise!

How else can you learn contact/attached fighting skills but in a contact/attached mode or platform?

you really don't understand ....you try to sound like u do....but your inability to see is understandable.
Your trying to make a 1:1 of chi-sao to fighting because you haven't had the fundamental techniques presented properly. Or used the drills 'systematically' to develop the simple idea.

Simple when you see past the drills to the actual GOAL.

trying to type your way ut of what you wrote won't change what we all se either. A guy who wants to be taken seriously as an authority of VT, sadly your making a fool of yourself.

[couch]

you really don't understand ....you try to sound like u do....but your inability to see is understandable.
Your trying to make a 1:1 of chi-sao to fighting because you haven't had the fundamental techniques presented properly. Or used the drills 'systematically' to develop the simple idea.

Simple when you see past the drills to the actual GOAL.

trying to type your way ut of what you wrote won't change what we all se either. A guy who wants to be taken seriously as an authority of VT, sadly your making a fool of yourself.

Hey Kevin!

Just trying to make sense of it all..I think it's just a couple different ways of thinking.

You see it (as well as many others) that the drills 'systematically' lead to a goal.

Whereas (as far as I can tell), T is all about activity-based training. In a recent interview, GSP was asked if he used a treadmill or ran outside to keep his cardio up. He responded that he didn't do those things, but instead just sparred, practiced MT, BJJ and wrestling - sport/activity-specific. If proficiency in fighting is the goal, then practicing the actual goal should be a large part of the whole of practice.

I can see both sides of it...

Peace,
CTK

[Tom Kagan]

One of the guys in my group (Scott) had a very difficult time developing his structure, because he had learned WCK with his weight on the heels/whole foot and kept reverting to that instead of keeping his weight on the balls of his foot. So. one day he showed up to our workouts wearing what he called his "structure boots"! These were big, heavy work boots that had an elevated heel that forced his weight to his toes -- he couldn't, even if he wanted to, put his weight on his heel. While we all made fun of him in his funny boots, they did help him develop his structure. I wish I had known of these shoes!

He had a lack of mobility, not a lack of stability.

BTW, this shoe actually keeps weight off the heels. But, this shoe would cost considerably less than the specialized weightlifting shoe if you still want a heel crutch.


... also, it's "sticking hands" -- "sticking" is used as a verb; "sticky" can only be an adjective.

[k gledhill]

Hey Kevin!

Just trying to make sense of it all..I think it's just a couple different ways of thinking.

You see it (as well as many others) that the drills 'systematically' lead to a goal.

Whereas (as far as I can tell), T is all about activity-based training. In a recent interview, GSP was asked if he used a treadmill or ran outside to keep his cardio up. He responded that he didn't do those things, but instead just sparred, practiced MT, BJJ and wrestling - sport/activity-specific. If proficiency in fighting is the goal, then practicing the actual goal should be a large part of the whole of practice.

I can see both sides of it...

Peace,
CTK

We spar without pre contact, we know what to do if guys try to stop us from hitting them from chi-sao drills. We can fight either side of an opponent seamlessly from chi-sao using either hand. The drills teach us not to retract our hands before striking/parrying and to generate force behind this premise, from our stances etc...against each other in DRILLS. For sparring from no pre-contact to a sudden clash ...? what to do in the sudden clash ? think ? wonder what to do ? what side to use what arm etc...or the guy moves away from us ? towards us with a right extended arm..what side tactically to go to ....you see my side ?

I know why T fights as he does , no mystery. He doesnt know VT attack ideas using the fundamental striking ability developed from chi-sao drills. Or the tactics to apply them.

GSP doesnt do VT so I can hardly hold his ideas up about chi-sao , what does he say about it ? When he has to fight 12 rounds instead of 4-5? many of those rounds on his back out of cardio requirements then we can ask him again

BTW Tae Bo came from ? yeah ...so GSP is doing cardio in MT training.

[Graham H]

I know why T fights as he does , no mystery. He doesnt know VT attack ideas using the fundamental striking ability developed from chi-sao drills. Or the tactics to apply them.

Excellent, and a very true point Kev!!!! Its written all over his posts.

GH

[t_niehoff]

you really don't understand ....you try to sound like u do....but your inability to see is understandable.
Your trying to make a 1:1 of chi-sao to fighting because you haven't had the fundamental techniques presented properly. Or used the drills 'systematically' to develop the simple idea.

Simple when you see past the drills to the actual GOAL.

See, this is precisely the problem. You can't develop X by doing Y. The "goal" of chi sao is to control the opponent while striking him. Everything is -- or should be -- directed toward that goal. The movement/actions of WCK are means to do just that. So by practicing trying to control an opponent in a very limited (unrealistic) scenario using the WCK tools, you learn how to do that.

trying to type your way ut of what you wrote won't change what we all se either. A guy who wants to be taken seriously as an authority of VT, sadly your making a fool of yourself.

I'm not typing my way out of anything. Everything I've written is completely consistent -- to people not too dense to see it.

BTW, why don't you explain who Gary Lam, one of WSL's top guys, ALSO talks about chi sao being "standing grappling" and that the object of the exercise is to control the opponent while striking him (as those links indicated)?

[t_niehoff]

We spar without pre contact,

I don't doubt that you do -- and probably do nothing but noncontact sparring. So what? You spar with your students who do the exact same things, and presto! what you do seems to work. This is true in every McDojo, every fantasy fu school, etc.

As I keep telling Victor, sparring only with your students and other poorly skilled people not only doesn't prove anything but it is self-limiting AND leads to failure. You need to spar with good, proven people that beat you. If they are not beating you, then you are not growing. You are only as good as your training/sparring partners.

we know what to do if guys try to stop us from hitting them from chi-sao drills. We can fight either side of an opponent seamlessly from chi-sao using either hand. The drills teach us not to retract our hands before striking/parrying and to generate force behind this premise, from our stances etc...against each other in DRILLS. For sparring from no pre-contact to a sudden clash ...? what to do in the sudden clash ? think ? wonder what to do ? what side to use what arm etc...or the guy moves away from us ? towards us with a right extended arm..what side tactically to go to ....you see my side ?

WCK's method is to control while striking the opponent. That includes getting in from noncontact and fighting on the inside. Clashing is inevitable.

I know why T fights as he does , no mystery. He doesnt know VT attack ideas using the fundamental striking ability developed from chi-sao drills. Or the tactics to apply them.

You have no clue as to what I am talking about. This is clear from your posts.

Tell me, what is the "fundamental striking ability developed from chi sao"? Do YOU know it. I'll tell you what it is: the ability to destroy the opponent's structure. And, you're not doing that, nor is Bayer in his videos. And the tactics of WCK are various ways of using the tools to control the opponent. Since you don't control the opponent, all your "tactics" are nonsense.

GSP doesnt do VT so I can hardly hold his ideas up about chi-sao , what does he say about it ? When he has to fight 12 rounds instead of 4-5? many of those rounds on his back out of cardio requirements then we can ask him again

You are an idiot, aren't you? What GSP and other FIGHTERS, not guys like you who fantasize about KOing people in bars, recognize is the mechanism for developing high levels of physical skill and performance (which is why they are world class fighters and can train very good fighters), and it is as 'couch' indicates. That you don't listen to them is just more proof that you live in a fantasy world of your own making.

[k gledhill]

I don't doubt that you do -- and probably do nothing but noncontact sparring. So what? You spar with your students who do the exact same things, and presto! what you do seems to work. This is true in every McDojo, every fantasy fu school, etc.

As I keep telling Victor, sparring only with your students and other poorly skilled people not only doesn't prove anything but it is self-limiting AND leads to failure. You need to spar with good, proven people that beat you. If they are not beating you, then you are not growing. You are only as good as your training/sparring partners.



WCK's method is to control while striking the opponent. That includes getting in from noncontact and fighting on the inside. Clashing is inevitable.



You have no clue as to what I am talking about. This is clear from your posts.

Tell me, what is the "fundamental striking ability developed from chi sao"? Do YOU know it. I'll tell you what it is: the ability to destroy the opponent's structure. And, you're not doing that, nor is Bayer in his videos. And the tactics of WCK are various ways of using the tools to control the opponent. Since you don't control the opponent, all your "tactics" are nonsense.



You are an idiot, aren't you? What GSP and other FIGHTERS, not guys like you who fantasize about KOing people in bars, recognize is the mechanism for developing high levels of physical skill and performance (which is why they are world class fighters and can train very good fighters), and it is as 'couch' indicates. That you don't listen to them is just more proof that you live in a fantasy world of your own making.

You will never learn....

I repeat...I know why T fights as he does , no mystery. He doesnt know VT attack ideas using the fundamental striking ability developed from chi-sao drills. Or the tactics to apply them.

[Yoshiyahu]

This underscores the problem with using English interpretations of Chinese terms. In this case, using "stick" for "chi". In English, "stick" has many meanings that the Chinese term "chi" doesn't. For example, "stick" in English can mean "to poke like with a pin."

The Chinese term "chi" denotes two grains of rice that cling (hence another interpretation of chi sao is "arm clinging") together, expressing the notion of a certain degree of attachment (not too solid and not too fragile).

What I do in chi sao is maintain a flexible attachment to my opponent's bridges while trying to control while striking my partner.

Thanks for the definition of the chinese term. That is very interesting informative I never knew that. Very interesting way yo look at chi sau. As clinging arms. Very good indeed.

.........is not what to do in Chi Sau!!!!!

Tell me Terence. How would you fight a person that is not stupid enough to give you their arms????

GH

In fighting you have many opportunities to cling or stick to your opponent. A bridge is given when ever your opponent punches or intercepts your attack. If you punch and your opponent grabs your punching hand, obstructs it with his hand or blocks it or parry. That is a bridge. From the Bridge you can pull down his arm and strike, jerk it, press it, push or wedge while punching. This is the basis of sticking. The ideology is to limit your opponent ability to strike back or defend while you have clean crisp opening to abuse.

"You don't need an attached drill to learn to do unattached punching. ' terence

do you stick to the dummy arms too ?

Actually the dummy is all about attached techniques. If you look at the dummy form you will see Yip or Wong Shun leung being attached to the dummy as they strike with the other hand or kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4rDLWIddaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

Now there are transitions were non-contact occur but then contact is re-established when the strike comes. The Huen sau cycle is attached or sticking is it not? what about the neck grab in the beginning, now you have times where your connected and where your not. You have fighters who move in and out of posistion and fighters who brawl. But even when a fighter who floats like butterfly and stings like a bee. When he comes to sting he gives you connection and bridge to attach. Its your job to control him from the point of contact to break his structure so he can not evade or retreat out of you range. The entire Dummy form is not attached, nor is the entire dummy form unattached. So be it when you fight.

I don't do wing chun any more but to me attached fighting is a lot more than attaching to someone's arms. There's head and neck control, underhooks, overhooks, pushing, jamming and even grabbing clothes.

Why limit yourself to just the arms?

I have to agree with you. Very good theory. This is also very Wing Chun too. I don't know if you realize this. There is jamming, obstructing, neck control and head control in WC too!

[k gledhill]

Thanks for the definition of the chinese term. That is very interesting informative I never knew that. Very interesting way yo look at chi sau. As clinging arms. Very good indeed.




In fighting you have many opportunities to cling or stick to your opponent. A bridge is given when ever your opponent punches or intercepts your attack. If you punch and your opponent grabs your punching hand, obstructs it with his hand or blocks it or parry. That is a bridge. From the Bridge you can pull down his arm and strike, jerk it, press it, push or wedge while punching. This is the basis of sticking. The ideology is to limit your opponent ability to strike back or defend while you have clean crisp opening to abuse.




Actually the dummy is all about attached techniques. If you look at the dummy form you will see Yip or Wong Shun leung being attached to the dummy as they strike with the other hand or kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4rDLWIddaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

Now there are transitions were non-contact occur but then contact is re-established when the strike comes. The Huen sau cycle is attached or sticking is it not? what about the neck grab in the beginning, now you have times where your connected and where your not. You have fighters who move in and out of posistion and fighters who brawl. But even when a fighter who floats like butterfly and stings like a bee. When he comes to sting he gives you connection and bridge to attach. Its your job to control him from the point of contact to break his structure so he can not evade or retreat out of you range. The entire Dummy form is not attached, nor is the entire dummy form unattached. So be it when you fight.



I have to agree with you. Very good theory. This is also very Wing Chun too. I don't know if you realize this. There is jamming, obstructing, neck control and head control in WC too!

touching the dummy isnt development of 'sticking' the dummy isnt a man attacking you with two arms outstretched

[t_niehoff]

touching the dummy isnt development of 'sticking' the dummy isnt a man attacking you with two arms outstretched

Sticking isn't something you do only when a man is attacking your or facing you with two outstretched arms.

When you "stick" (chi) you are sticking to the opponent's center. That is the basis for chasing control (rather than chasing the hands). If I have contact with your arm, I am using that as a "handle" to your center; if I have contact with your head, I amusing that as a "handle" to your center; etc. IOWs, I stick to your center through whatever contact I have.

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post...I like the way you re-worded that. Its all about controlling your opponents center line and attacking line. Outstreched arms don't always occur. So you cling to what you can be it a shoulder, wrist, elbow,neck, head, or body and strike deep with in their center.

Sticking isn't something you do only when a man is attacking your or facing you with two outstretched arms.

When you "stick" (chi) you are sticking to the opponent's center. That is the basis for chasing control (rather than chasing the hands). If I have contact with your arm, I am using that as a "handle" to your center; if I have contact with your head, I amusing that as a "handle" to your center; etc. IOWs, I stick to your center through whatever contact I have.

[k gledhill]

Terences replies reveal a comlete lack of understanding the dummy...he is still trying to work attached fighting into it...... ?
: )

[t_niehoff]

Terences replies reveal a comlete lack of understanding the dummy...he is still trying to work attached fighting into it...... ?
: )

I guess you don't have the kuit Muk Yan Jong Lien Ging Lik Gung?

WCK's method is to control while striking the opponent, and everything in the curriculum is directed toward that.