ill take your word for it
humungous the barbarian
ill take your word for it
I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.
left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse
handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down
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does ? your seeing YM sticking to the dummy ?Originally Posted by YungChun
that explains a lot.
Attain Master of Silence
Tools in contact with the arms... but no sticking eh...? I'm getting a little sick of the semantic BS... It serves no purpose except to try to save one's weak position.
Right, we train sticking hands but no Chun doesn't stick...doesn't make contact, doesn't control, doesn't issue energy, doesn't have techniques which steal balance..no of course not..it just chain punches till the cows come home, which is why there are only punches in the sets.....right.....
And yes that says a lot too...
Chun controls and open lines while striking... All Chun tools make contact....the duration of contact doesn't determine if it's sticking, contact used for opening lines and controlling is sticking...
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F
"You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu
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-----I don't think you can sum it up in one line any better than that!
How would you fight a person that is not stupid enough to give you their arms????
---You just hit them!!!! However, unless you are fighting a total scrub or have ambushed some poor guy unexpectedly, most people are going to reflexively throw up their arms to protect themselves. Its not stupid, its reflex. Then you have arms/bridges to use to control them while hitting them, and the skills developed in Chi Sao kick in!
do you stick to the dummy arms too ?
----I do! Let's say you do a Jum Sao to the upper arm, then Huen Sao to a low palm strike. Do you disengage the dummy arm when going from Jum to Huen, or do you stick to the arm? There is "sticking" involved through-out the dummy form.
LukSao is the rolling.. The rolling is the basis for ChiSao, which is how we refer to the main two handed sticking drill. The term ChiSao could be used to refer to any contact (sticking) drill but is most commonly used to refer to the two handed drill.. This should not be news to anyone..
---I agree! Luk Sao is the rolling "platform" used to develop the various skills by applying technique from that platform. Other mainland WCK methods use a "Poon Sao" platform that is more "coiling" and is different from the Luk Sao used in Yip Man WCK and Yuen Kay Shan WCK. The generic term "Chi Sao" can apply to the single hand version, double hand version, Lop Da drills.....anything that involves staying in contact with the partner/opponent and reacting to his movements through tactile feedback. But we do tend to apply the term almost exclusively to the Luk Sao activity and forget that it is really a generic label.
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its not sticking. its the opposite. by hitting the 'immovable' dummy arms on a 'rigid' fixed axis we develop the ability to displace contact so we can hit/punch.....
we fight with lead and rear cycling for this reason. we cycle on the dummy for this reason....
sticking dummy !! hahahh what next ?
Attain Master of Silence
There is no "cycling" except in your obsessive chain punching...
You know as well as I do that there is the controlling element and the line clearing/striking element.. Otherwise there would be no need for hand replacement or hand unity, more than half the techniques and tools, including leg/stance breaking moves, and dozens of others.
Put all these things together with the displacement/striking and you get controlling while striking... You or whomever choose to leave out major parts? Fine by me.. But pretending they're not there is just plain goofy, especially when you know they are there and have said your "new and different" approach leaves them out; Where "new and different" equates to an emphasis on a beginner's approach with hyper-timed chain punching and power based on momentum.
I mean really...
Last edited by YungChun; 11-19-2010 at 12:46 PM.
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F
"You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu
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simple answer is you don't have all the info or you would agree....why don't we meet up ?
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Chi Sao is nothing more than a drill. Whereby 2 people can pactice controling an opponent while striking him. Both get to practice this in a routine. It can be changed up in any way you want. However, people that have different ideas as to what it is and how it should be done have changed it into a childs game. A compitition of sorts where each person is trying to out chi sao the other and strike him. This does nothing really, as no one actually fights this way. If you can gain the inside on someone for an instant, you can sometimes control them for the time it takes for you to pop them a good one, maybe a couple of times, but it is fleeting and you will not maintain this bridge for long if you can not deliver.
The control methods that Chi Sao teaches are intended to be used on those that have no idea what Wing Chun is. They have no Chi Sao skills and will not be able to prevent your controlling them if you are good and fast with it. Once on the inside they lose effectiveness because they will not know how to deliver a punch at such a range, but you will, and all the while you will be preventing the use of one or both arms while you are able to deliver.
You will never be able to roll your hands with an opponent. If someone should attempt that with me they would regret it rather quickly. Unless of course he is a good WC man. It has been my experience over a lifetime that you will not meet one unless you hang around a kwoon.
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The sticking hands concept is a 2 edges sword. When you can sense your opponent's intention, at the same time your opponent can sense yours too. The best way is the moment that you have sense your oponent's intention, you destroy your bridge and move in.
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"Sticking" is a quality....the ability to maintain contact through a multi step motion. Are you saying you never do this on the dummy?
Banned
Of course. If not, why do you even need arms on your dummy -- you might as well just punch a bag."You don't need an attached drill to learn to do unattached punching. ' terence
do you stick to the dummy arms too ?
Banned
As I have said, what you describe is simply ONE LIMITED TACTIC in the WCK arsenal -- it has only very limited usefulness. Apparently Bayer either didn't learn the "rest" of WCK or can't do it so limited himself to teaching what he can. Either way, your "idea" and perspective of looking at everything through these tinted glasses only obscures what is blatantly obvious. Most of the action we practice on the dummy doesn't involve "displacing contact to hit/punch".
I am sorry that you can't see past Bayer's limitation, and see that other WSL students (Lam, Wan, etc.) have a great deal more to offer and focus on controlling while striking, that other lineages in the Yip family, and other nonYip lineages (YKS, PN, GuLao, etc.) also focus on controlling while striking the opponent. Bayer is alone in his little, limited boat, and WCK is a much larger pond.
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No, it LOOKS like it to the uniformed observer, as does chi-sao, it LOOKS like we are trying to stick to the hands/wrists etc...due to a lack of understanding at the onset."Sticking" is a quality....the ability to maintain contact through a multi step motion. Are you saying you never do this on the dummy?
Chi-sao prepares us for the sudden chaotic clash of fighting a guy who DOESN'T DO CHI-SAO or is going to do something 'like' chi-sao, sure you can try to make it dirty clinch bs, but thats making s h i t up, because you dont know better...
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Look, you and others here dont have the same information I have, its not a secret, i am sharing, sadly I cant convey the idea via words on a forum, when you experience the attacking of WSL in front of your face as you try to stick to my arms you will figure out exactly what WSL did to guys and why he usually beat them within 3 moves...yeah 3.
I can understand how now too.
Remember i was classically trained in the ways your talking about now T, I met Robert and chi-saoed with him and a lot of Hawkins Sifu's class, along with other west coast schools. I have met a student of Roberts and he too understands himself....so he can see it, what do you think YOU will see ?
Banned
You're right, it is not a secret. It is, as I said, a well-known LIMITED tactic in WCK.
You keep talking about "sticking to your arms" and you don't grasp that sticking in only part of the method.
WSL beat scrubs. Name any known fighter he beat. Yeah, none. What about when they carried WSL out on a stretcher -- did that happen in 3 moves too?
No you weren't.Remember i was classically trained in the ways your talking about now T,
First, understand that you aren't training now and you didn't train then. All you did and now do is keep repeating the curriculum of WCK. You don't DO WCK; you do the WCK curriculum. And the curriculum you learned from Victor Kan is lacking in many regards (as evidenced by your ignorance of the faat mun, the kuit, how the various parts fit together, etc.).
So, what does that matter?I met Robert and chi-saoed with him and a lot of Hawkins Sifu's class, along with other west coast schools.
Yes, I know. The student of Robert's you are referring to wasn't a serious practitioner (that he now trains with you proves that) but a recreational student, he never has tried to make his WCK functional, etc. If you want to get a good idea of Robert's curriculum and/or how it is put to use, you need to look at Robert's students that have put in "the work." Robert can tell you who they are.I have met a student of Roberts and he too understands himself....so he can see it, what do you think YOU will see ?
Regardless, the method comes from the ancestors. And you apparently haven't learned it.
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