Sticking Hands

[Sean66]

@t_niehoff

I think if you were to train with Bayer just once, your opinion of him and his gong fu would radically change.

Likening Bayer and his students to "lame-ass, strip mall karate studio guys" without having experienced their training first-hand is simply unfair.

Why so much animosity?

Sean

[sihing]

Curious.

What are you 'doing' when practicing the Chi Sau?

Are you practicing Sticky Hands?
Definition:a : adhesive b (1) : viscous, gluey (2) : coated with a sticky substance

Or are you practicing Sticking Hands?
Definition: to hit or propel (as a hockey puck) with a stick (ergo: to stick an animal to death)

..something to think about...

Sticking hands is how I interpret it.

What are we practicing in Chi sau:
-structure development, without some sort of support behind your attacks
you have nothing. Imagine being hung up in the air in a harness, your off
the ground, now trying punching or kicking something with power, see what
happens.

-body mechanic development, how does your body perform the task, how
does it punch (frm inside or outside of bridge), how does it handle pressure,
excert pressure, divert pressure. Elbow initiation of all upper body movement
, dan chi brings SNT mechanics/structure alive, interaction with live energy.
Luk sau brings both 2 side alive training, so your 50/50 in your limbs actions, keeps
your facing correct.

-Lat sau jik chung- spring like reflexes within your arms and body, fills in the
gaps when holes are developed in your opponents defences, automatic
striking ability.

-prolonged contact drills train the neuromuscular system (muscle memory) to
aim, travel, flow, connect, project, punch, etc... all your focused power into
the center axis of your opponent. Why does lifting weight increase your
muscle size/strength? Because the prolonged stress over time forces the
muscles to adapt to that stress environment, they get bigger and stronger,
forcing you to increase the stress(weight) to force more of the same.

Just to name a few.

Regarding the other topics that have arisen from this thread, in my experience, until you have "personally" met and trained with someone, you really don't know what their knowledge/abilities are, as they may be making you think they do or don't know something from what they post online or on vids.

James

[Graham H]

I have trained with Bayer plenty of times during workshops in Germany, and all I can say is that his "structure" is amazing. His whole body is behind whatever he does, be it a punch, jut sau, lap sau....everything. He destabilizes, controls and hits his opponent simultaneously.

Something that Terence will never witness and I think that's a good thing.

I haven't seen any good structure or VT in ANY video T has offered to prove his point. Its just messy, ineffective rubbish that is practiced in many WCK schools today.

When PB was asked what he wanted for the future of WSLVT he simply said....."to keep the foolish people away from the system"

Terence falls directly in the middle of that category.

The more posts Terence puts up the bigger the hole he digs. It used to frustrate me but now I find it amusing. Keep 'em coming Terence.

GH

[YungChun]

You don't know what I mean by Looksau. You just have your own interpretation of what you 'think' it is as for you it's all within this 'chisau' drill, yes? Let me ask you this, what is the difference between hand and forearm contact? Can you 'stick' and really control me with your forearm?

You're changing the subject... LukSao is the rolling platform, I did not flesh out what that means or what it's purpose is....

The contact points in LukSao ranges between the wrist and forearm area.. That's where the contact is... The power comes from the horse and connection through structure..

Looksau isn't only about rolling, it's about breaking structure and getting into hand to body contact range.

And you think this is some new concept? Yes, of course, no one has been writing post after post about this stuff for years except you, right? GMAFB.

Specific two handed postures are used to do this. They are linked and cycled. They help to actually defend chisau, and so I have to say you are not on my page man.

On your delusional page, no certainly I hope not.

Specific postures? Wow that's amazing..

You're thinking its all the same. All contact is Chisau? I have to disagree.

All you have is an ego contest, semantics and straw man arguments.. "All the same" is your wording.. All contact drills involving sticking are considered ChiSao because ChiSao means Sticking Hands, eg Sticking Hand Drills, even you should be able to understand that..

I can't really be bothered. Was he really 'teaching' how to be beaten? No. He was just beating his student, he wasn't teaching him to do that. And FWIW he was using Looksau alot to gain the advantage against someone who didn't know the difference between Looksau and Chisau.

He was demonstrating control using the tools and actions of Chun in a drill we call ChiSao.. Your superior tone without backing it up just makes you sound more the fool--superiority through semantics--yes very impressive and it's all you've got.

Of course he teaches LukSao, of course we do and learn LukSao it's a prerequisite to the two handed drill we call ChiSao... LukSao is mainly a 'fight' for position; for control of the line, the center...

A common misinterpretation in Wing Chun today is thinking that all interactive exercises are Chisau.

Still dizzy eh?

All sticking drills are considered ChiSao, (Sticking Hand Drills) not just the two handed drill ChiSao that uses LukSao as it's platform.. The labels are secondary to the purpose....

[t_niehoff]

@t_niehoff

I think if you were to train with Bayer just once, your opinion of him and his gong fu would radically change.

Likening Bayer and his students to "lame-ass, strip mall karate studio guys" without having experienced their training first-hand is simply unfair.

Why so much animosity?

Sean

What am I to think of people who teach and SELL WCK to others for money, put up videos on youtube to promote themselves and their business, claim to be authorities on WCK, have organizations, claim to be able to teach you to fight, etc. but never, ever show themselves being able to handle themselves in fighting (oh, but they will put up all kinds of demo videos, won't they?)?

And, then his students promote a "theory" that is simply stupid?'

What am I to think?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, . . . .

[k gledhill]

What am I to think of people who teach and SELL WCK to others for money, put up videos on youtube to promote themselves and their business, claim to be authorities on WCK, have organizations, claim to be able to teach you to fight, etc. but never, ever show themselves being able to handle themselves in fighting (oh, but they will put up all kinds of demo videos, won't they?)?

And, then his students promote a "theory" that is simply stupid?'

What am I to think?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, . . . .

your so biased its obvious to us all....you have an agenda Terence, its sad really because your promoting 'yourself' and your ego here, regardless of ideas and opinions , you try to shoot people down in flames for the mark you can put on your old sopwith camel [aka old mans ego]

You havent really got that much 1st hand experience, and yet you flaunt yourself as a an authority with only 'faat twitch twitch' knowledge....

[Graham H]

Post deleted

[Sean66]

Hello Terence,

I am no spokesman for Bayer, but I'm pretty sure that he just doesn't feel that he has to prove anything to you or anybody else. His goal is to make what he learned from WSL work for him and to pass on his knowledge to his students.

I can understand your skepticism, but to dismiss the skills of someone like Philipp out-right, based solely upon what you've seen on youtube, is unfair. Go train with with him. Then we'll have a better basis for real discussion.

On topic:

Chi sao - structure, coordination, orientation (square on idea), distance, timing, lat sua jik chung, footwork....it's all in there.

[t_niehoff]

Hello Terence,

I am no spokesman for Bayer, but I'm pretty sure that he just doesn't feel that he has to prove anything to you or anybody else. His goal is to make what he learned from WSL work for him and to pass on his knowledge to his students.

I can understand your skepticism, but to dismiss the skills of someone like Philipp out-right, based solely upon what you've seen on youtube, is unfair. Go train with with him. Then we'll have a better basis for real discussion.

On topic:

Chi sao - structure, coordination, orientation (square on idea), distance, timing, lat sua jik chung, footwork....it's all in there.

Should I go train with everyone who posts WCK clips on youtube and give them all a chance?

You are looking at it from the wrong direction. I don't ASSUME someone has skills; I assume they don't UNTIL I SEE good evidence to the contrary. Bayer posts his own clips to youtube. He isn't posting them because he thinks they show him in a bad light. And that tells me he doesn't know they show him in a bad light. Based on what I see and what I hear of his teachings, training with Bayer would be training to fail.

[Graham H]

Bayer posts his own clips to youtube. He isn't posting them because he thinks they show him in a bad light. And that tells me he doesn't know they show him in a bad light. Based on what I see and what I hear of his teachings, training with Bayer would be training to fail.

If you are not prepared to Terence then why can't you button it for a change?

PB doesn't put up his own clips.

What you see and what you hear compared to what really goes on are two totally different things. I know it, KG knows it and so do all the other people that I have told to come on here and look at your ramblings.

You really have no clue. The fact that you think you have is great reading!!!

GH

[t_niehoff]

If you are not prepared to Terence then why can't you button it for a change?

Hey, dude, it is not like I picked Bayer out of all the WCK people on the planet to criticize -- Kevin, and now you -- post what you claim are his "teachings", and I respond to them. Kevin portrays him as essentially the only person who has "the right idea" (LOL!).

If you and Kevin stop posting nonsense (it's all about the elbow, tan/jum punching, etc.) then I have nothing more to say about the guy.

PB doesn't put up his own clips.

Oh, I see -- he's not responsible for the crap. He has a website, there are clips that promote him, etc. but he isn't posting them. Gotcha.

What you see and what you hear compared to what really goes on are two totally different things. I know it, KG knows it and so do all the other people that I have told to come on here and look at your ramblings.

So what he does when the camera is on is one thing and what he does when it is off is another. Right. Apparently, when the camera is on, his punch is weak, he has no control, no decent body structure, etc. but turn that baby off and lookout!

You really have no clue. The fact that you think you have is great reading!!!
GH

If it's so much fun, why do you keep asking me to stop?

[Graham H]

Hey, dude, it is not like I picked Bayer out of all the WCK people on the planet to criticize -- Kevin, and now you -- post what you claim are his "teachings", and I respond to them. Kevin portrays him as essentially the only person who has "the right idea" (LOL!).

No Terence you critisize everybody apart from RC and AO and at the same time put yourself on your imaginary pedestal. Like I have said before.......you never offer anything that I haven't heard or seen before. Its all pants!!!

If you and Kevin stop posting nonsense (it's all about the elbow, tan/jum punching, etc.) then I have nothing more to say about the guy.

Its not nonsense Terence. You just dont know anything about it. That much is obvious.

Oh, I see -- he's not responsible for the crap. He has a website, there are clips that promote him, etc. but he isn't posting them. Gotcha.

Is the correct answer. I wouldn't be so hasty to call it crap either because you have no idea and have never met the guy.

his punch is weak, he has no control, no decent body structure, etc. but turn that baby off and lookout!

All this from video footage???? You are amazing!!!

If it's so much fun, why do you keep asking me to stop?

Good point!!!!. In fact the only time you talk sense is when its not about WCK.

GH

[t_niehoff]

No Terence you critisize everybody apart from RC and AO and at the same time put yourself on your imaginary pedestal. Like I have said before.......you never offer anything that I haven't heard or seen before. Its all pants!!!

As I've indicated, WCK's method is controlling while striking, and while this is what Robert teaches, so do many others (Lam, Wan, Moy, SN, Hawkins, Pan Nam, Gu Lao, HFY, etc.). It is, after all, part of the core curriculum of WCK. Good WCK is based on control (and controlling the opponent); poor WCK has little to no control.

Its not nonsense Terence. You just dont know anything about it. That much is obvious.

Again, all of that is just a small part of WCK, and everyone has it. Bayer has just mistaken it for the whole.

Is the correct answer. I wouldn't be so hasty to call it crap either because you have no idea and have never met the guy.

I haven't met most of the people who post crap on youtube! Why do you think that I need to personally meet everyone to see that what they are doing is crap?

All this from video footage???? You are amazing!!!

Hardly. All you have to do is look at what he is doing and how he is doing it.

Good point!!!!. In fact the only time you talk sense is when its not about WCK.

GH

Oh, I talk sense then too.

[LoneTiger108]

The contact points in LukSao ranges between the wrist and forearm area.. That's where the contact is... The power comes from the horse and connection through structure..

If you say so, but can you STICK to me with your forearm? Does that work better, or is it more efficient than sticking to me with your hands?? Hmmm... you sure you're not dizzy now??

Specific postures? Wow that's amazing..

Okay. Name them. You must know them or you wouldn't be so condescending yourself. We refer to them as Sei Sik (Four Sets) and it is considered a speciality of Lee Shing Family as they're used everywhere!

So, please share what you know of the four sets of looksau...

All you have is an ego contest, semantics and straw man arguments.. "All the same" is your wording.. All contact drills involving sticking are considered ChiSao because ChiSao means Sticking Hands, eg Sticking Hand Drills, even you should be able to understand that..

Listen, just because I make contact with you I don't HAVE to stick y'know? Yes, I know it's our speciality, but it is just one method. That's all I was saying. Not trying to polish my ego here. In fact I'm totally ego-less. Ask people who know me!

Of course he teaches LukSao, of course we do and learn LukSao it's a prerequisite to the two handed drill we call ChiSao... LukSao is mainly a 'fight' for position; for control of the line, the center...

Still dizzy eh?

All sticking drills are considered ChiSao, (Sticking Hand Drills) not just the two handed drill ChiSao that uses LukSao as it's platform.. The labels are secondary to the purpose....

Sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself dude I only tried to highlight that I take Chisau training as something different to Looksau training. Yes they both have their strengths and weaknesses, and are normally practised together all the time! Problems arise when you don't know where you're at or what's happening to you during your interaction. And I generally see this ALL the time online.

Put it this way, my Looksau will hit and hurt the opponent. My Chisau will stick to and stop the opponent. Totally different outcomes and something I only ask for you to consider. Like I said, if you know what Looksau I'm talking about SHOW ME

Look at this clip and tell me where the Looksau and Chisau is because they are both clearly present, with even more in there too. But that's another chat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp1...959A7&index=26

[shawchemical]

If you say so, but can you STICK to me with your forearm? Does that work better, or is it more efficient than sticking to me with your hands?? Hmmm... you sure you're not dizzy now??



Okay. Name them. You must know them or you wouldn't be so condescending yourself. We refer to them as Sei Sik (Four Sets) and it is considered a speciality of Lee Shing Family as they're used everywhere!

So, please share what you know of the four sets of looksau...



Listen, just because I make contact with you I don't HAVE to stick y'know? Yes, I know it's our speciality, but it is just one method. That's all I was saying. Not trying to polish my ego here. In fact I'm totally ego-less. Ask people who know me!



Sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself dude I only tried to highlight that I take Chisau training as something different to Looksau training. Yes they both have their strengths and weaknesses, and are normally practised together all the time! Problems arise when you don't know where you're at or what's happening to you during your interaction. And I generally see this ALL the time online.

Put it this way, my Looksau will hit and hurt the opponent. My Chisau will stick to and stop the opponent. Totally different outcomes and something I only ask for you to consider. Like I said, if you know what Looksau I'm talking about SHOW ME

Look at this clip and tell me where the Looksau and Chisau is because they are both clearly present, with even more in there too. But that's another chat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp1...959A7&index=26

I dont know why people keep promoting that crap as being good. It fundamentally lacks almost everything which VT seeks to achieve.