You mean your fantasy fu VT, right?Originally Posted by shawchemical
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You mean your fantasy fu VT, right?
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Yes (+ word unfairly moderated out by Dave as it contains appropriate color commentary).
But if the rolling with nobody and commenting about everybody is working for you, I don't want to ruin your momentum.
Last edited by Wayfaring; 11-22-2010 at 05:47 PM.
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Who is Shawchemical? I never understand why people don't just use their name?
VT? problem - lots of views on what chi sao is about and how to train it. Its just a tool for developing your skills.
Answer - does your wing chun work in a fight or under pressure.
If so then you will start having some feedback that others can learn from.
On fourms I hear so much talk. Best thing is to meet the people you are talking about before you have anything to say. Otherwise statements lack any depth of meaning.
Alan Orr
Registered User
Thats funny as I trained many years ago in Kan's style did not ever see body mechanics being taught.Okaaaay, Your Sifu complemented me on my use of bongsaos at the dinner after, that you didnt attend. I used these bong saos to turn your upper body power [tall guy] and you didnt have an answer for it so you took me back to the rear door outside so we could be alone and asked me all about bong saos, you peered over our arms like a bird as we 'rolled'....
I didnt say I kaarse...V Kan actually teaches very good mechanics it worked against you
didnt it.
Anyway your always welcome to come to ny and join in a class as old buddy's
My replies are aimed at Terence not you. He insults me I am a mirror, VK taught me that.
Lots of turning punches and chain punching. In fact the reason I stopped was due to the lack of body mechanics. I saw the WSL method and could see it had better angles, but again not clear body power, then I was Si Gung H Cheung via a visiting student and that was the first time I saw correct body mechanics - that lead me to my teacher Robert Chu. My opinion of course, but based in the real world.
Alan
Attain Master of Silence
Not everyone from each family has it or not.. There are wide variations in my family for example with some people totally not having good mechanics and others very much having good mechanics.. So I tend not to buy into the brand as much as the who and how.
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F
"You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu
Attain Master of Silence
Yes, you're completely ego-less.....right...If you say so, but can you STICK to me with your forearm? Does that work better, or is it more efficient than sticking to me with your hands?? Hmmm... you sure you're not dizzy now??
I don't know what you're talking about and that's exactly what you want. If you really wanted to discuss something you would--you're not--you're having some kind of masturbatory ego stroke session with yourself with these responses--yuck!
LukSao for my family is as I described it.. If you would care to share some actual point or idea go right ahead and actually flesh one out.
See above.. If you would like to share what your family names things and how you break things down great.. I am not familiar with your families' names for these things..
The people who "know you" most likely haven't followed your posting here..either that or love is blind.Listen, just because I make contact with you I don't HAVE to stick y'know? Yes, I know it's our specialty, but it is just one method. That's all I was saying. Not trying to polish my ego here. In fact I'm totally ego-less. Ask people who know me!
Again, if you would like to flesh out some actual point then be my guest..otherwise you're not saying much.... It's up to the poster to make a clear point, or not.. So far not so much...
I am trying to explain how we train...I have no need to "convince myself" of that. If you would like to do that then by all means do it.Sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself dude
We do not separate "LukSao training" and two handed ChiSao training except for beginners... Beginners are restricted to LukSao when they are learning LukSao, then later they simply do ChiSao where LukSao is the base.. Still at that time they are (or were when I was learning) encouraged to focus their ChiSao work on something in particular, which could be a technique, tool, or a tactic such as lut sao jik chung, other Kuit elements, controlling the partner, FanSao, etc..rather than simply doing freestyle ChiSao, which is considered more advanced and done later on... I have written more about what and how we do what we do over the years here...
Too general a statement to comment on.
You made some disparaging remarks about WKL's work, why not actually back them up...?
Again you appear dizzy and with ego well intact..Put it this way, my Looksau will hit and hurt the opponent. My Chisau will stick to and stop the opponent. Totally different outcomes and something I only ask for you to consider. Like I said, if you know what Looksau I'm talking about SHOW ME
And again your statement is very generic... I can't comment on generalities..
I already told you part of our progression... I know what we call LukSao and how we use it, if you would like to explain what you do, again go ahead, or ask for clarification of what we do.. I am not going to play, "Name our labels" and do a dance for you...
I wouldn't say I "hit" with LukSao--control, take posiiton, but hit? Depends on exactly how you implement.. So you would have to elaborate, we want to hit with strikes, train FanSao, Chun gives out beatings.
We use ChiSao to flesh out the methods we want, that I want to use in fighting... Pretty simple conceptually but a long list of components to train...and that's pretty much it.
Last edited by YungChun; 11-23-2010 at 06:25 AM.
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F
"You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu
Registered User
Who did you see in the WSL lineage Alan???? Not all of WSL's students have the right idea which is why I had to look further a field than the UK.
GH
Registered User
I think I have seen most of the well known wsl guys over the years, thats not important. If you understand body structure you can see what is correct in terms of body power etc. I did meet WSL as well, so I know what he did and can see most people copy his forms and movements but without any depth of body skills.
I think WSL had the skills but from the way the forms are taught I can't see that he had a complete understanding of why he could do what he did. MY opinion based in first hand experience.
So Graham, who do you think have wsl right idea and who has not?
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Alan
The right idea????? Maybe we shouldn't use that phrase anymore. There are more variations of WCK then I care to imagine. Funny because most of them claim to come from one man.
If everybody was the same we'd all be wearing Clarks shoes.
The conversations are pointless. Just trawling over old ground time and time again.
FWIW I have looked at some videos of yours and I can't see any "body structure" at all BUT I'm not Terence and I would never jump to any stupid conclusions from viewing video footage.
Can you explain it because I maybe totally misinterpreting what you and the rest mean by body structure?
GH
Registered User
Maybe you'll find your answer in here Graham:
http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/structure.html
Good stuff in there.
Sean
Registered User
I met your teacher and found he sacrificed upper body for a false sense of security....I used bong saos easily for this. I also have a student who trained under RC, who I didnt relly have to much to to gain advantage by the same upper body errors...he is a good fighter, but lacks the 'idea' to make me worry when I fight him, he arm chases, multi tasks one arm etc...but he is fast, he over compensates with 'body' that can easily be dealt with. Now guys say he wasnt training long enough with RC, what do you think they will say about you when you meet PB, ???
Saying you 'saw' WSL not clear body power ?
I met many many more tooother WSL , other YM student...
Philipp Bayer
As for VK he teaches the SLT and stance process very well, sadly without WSL/PB thinking attached, but the elbows are in, the pivoting on heels, the 'turning punches' you refer to are simply for CK exercises and facing ...
Philipp 'unlocks' the system we all do before us. He reveals the simple ideas and clarifies the abstract that has confused many, me included.
I now have a knowledge that allows me to feel confidence that I always lacked thorugh my old ways of training. Maybe you might gain insight further to your training ?
There is only one way to find out....Philipp isn't a bully minded guy, very humble. You can ask him anything.
warning ! be prepared to drop a lot of the bs you are now doing ; )
Having a base to work with [vt training] it will be easier for you, like me to make your decisions.
I would even put money on it .
Last edited by k gledhill; 11-23-2010 at 05:43 AM.
Registered User
Thanks Sean but no I didn't find answers. I only had a few minutes during a break to skim through it. Maybe I will have another look later.
At first glance it just seems like over analysing the contact through rolling arms. How you deal with pressure, manipulate pressure and control peoples balance. All things possible if you are glued to each others arms.
I'm not disagreeing with anything wrote by Alan but my idea of VT is not "attached" fighting like theirs is so there is no point in considering the plus and negatives.
My idea of body structure is purely about how we can best use the body to support the punching and displacement actions of Ving Tsun.
When two people are in contact pushing each other around with their Bong Saus, Fook Saus, and Tan Saus its easy to see how such a drill can be misinterpreted.
Whether MY idea of Chi Sau is correct or not I'm happy with it because I didnt get very far using the "attached" way of WCK.
GH
Attain Master of Silence
Because you are assigning your own meaning to other's words..
They don't mean just the arms when they say stick..
Stick means stick to the core regardless.. Your punches, ALL Chun punches displace, take the line, it's not a new idea.. But where you fall off the ferry is when you fail to see the punches stick to their core and break them down..if their arms are in the way then........guess what? But the punches break them down, break down their structure and center regardless of arms in the way or not.. I think Kevin knows this...
So the structure is the structure, ALL Chun wants to break them down with those strikes.. . It's just that the art offers more and other options of control while you do that...
What's often missing is the synchronization of the horse (legs) with the hands.. (and that means a strong--solid--sunk--aligned--horse) Power comes from the legs/body--without this you are relying on arm power...
Last edited by YungChun; 11-23-2010 at 06:43 AM.
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F
"You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu
Registered User
I wish I got such enjoyment from posting here, but guess what? I don't
Okay, I have also described how I use Looksau but you must've missed it or something.
So what are YOUR names for things? How do you make sense of it all?
I think, personally, you maybe taking my posts the wrong way dude. Seeing things that aren't really there. But I can't help that, as I'm just here to share and discuss ideas. No agenda attached. No egos in the room.
I have already said Looksau is on the forearms (and wrist you say) whereas Chisau is all in the hands, but you think this isn't saying much? I beg to differ. Looksau, fme, is termed Rotating Arm/s whereas Chisau is Sticking Hand/s. I agree that they both help eachothers development, but I'm also saying that they should be developed individually. That's crucial or you will lose yourself when the practise deepens and speed enters the mix.
Please clarify the names of postures you use to teach Looksau.
Fme, the Looksau rotation is in itself quite a hefty force. Designed mainly for defence, yes, but if you walk into an elbow/shoulder/fist it is going to have an effect. Looksau hits all by itself. But what I was referring to was distancing. If we touch forearm to forearm we are both in hand-to-body contact range already. If we're both well versed it will be impossible for either to hit, until there is a mistake. However, if I'm touching your forearn with my palm to stick and manipulate, 9/10 times I will not be in the same close range. My opinion of course!
Without getting into any good/bad opinions, I just posted this clip because it highlights what I'm (trying!) to say. Kind of
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Registered User
Alan
The right idea????? Maybe we shouldn't use that phrase anymore. There are more variations of WCK then I care to imagine. Funny because most of them claim to come from one man.
If everybody was the same we'd all be wearing Clarks shoes.
The conversations are pointless. Just trawling over old ground time and time again.
FWIW I have looked at some videos of yours and I can't see any "body structure" at all BUT I'm not Terence and I would never jump to any stupid conclusions from viewing video footage.
Can you explain it because I maybe totally misinterpreting what you and the rest mean by body structure?
GH
If you can't see what body structure is then how can you have a view point?
I have written quite a few article on what it is already. But what you don't seem to be able to see is the linking and delling of the joints in the body to control an opponents weight and balance. This is what gives you timing and position.
Chi Sao for me is not just a quick chain punch and line changes. Its developement of my personal skill sets.
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