Sticking Hands

[YungChun]

The whole foot is on the floor but the focus is on the K1.. The focal point on the K1 WITH the heel on the floor creates a stretch and loading of the muscle and ligaments like a bow ready to fire...this creates energy storage or potential energy reserves..but your weight must be focused on the K1 not the heel...the heel must be grounded in order to create this "stretch"..

If you do it right you will feel this stretch and loading in the form of great tension in the muscles and ligaments, you can feel the stored power and it is quite pronounced.. This along with the loading of other muscles including the leg muscles and glutes (qua) is the energy generating machine Chun uses to make short, quick bursts of power that transfer into the whole body unit (hammer) and fires the arm (nail) into the target..

[Tom Kagan]

Go to a weightlifting competition and you will see shoes like this:


The built up heel is used to allow the weight to come forward because weight on the heels makes you unstable.

The advantage of the raised heel on a specialized olympic style weightlifting shoe was developed due to the human body's limits of ankle flexibility necessary for the squat variation of the snatch and C&J lifts. Stability is mantained by allowing the lifter to more solidly connect his or her heel to the floor during the bottom phase of the lifts -- thus making the lifter more stable, not less. Regardless, this shoe design is not pertinent to discussing movement patterns where the ankles, knees, and hips are not at the limits of range for human joint flexion.

[YouKnowWho]

If you want to throw your opponent over your body, you will need to raise your heel too. More than 50% of the throwing skill require "raising your heel".

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3427/leglift.jpg

[YungChun]

If you want to throw your opponent over your body, you will need to raise your heel too. More than 50% of the throwing skill require "raising your heel".

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3427/leglift.jpg

To be clear the loading, the stretching I mentioned does not exist as some static model, the stretch with the heel on the floor and focus on K1 is merely the bow stretched, not the bow firing.....heel now up, all muscles and tendons releasing power, etc.

[t_niehoff]

The advantage of the raised heel on a specialized olympic style weightlifting shoe was developed due to the human body's limits of ankle flexibility necessary for the squat variation of the snatch and C&J lifts. Stability is mantained by allowing the lifter to more solidly connect his or her heel to the floor during the bottom phase of the lifts -- thus making the lifter more stable, not less. Regardless, this shoe design is not pertinent to discussing movement patterns where the ankles, knees, and hips are not at the limits of range for human joint flexion.

One of the guys in my group (Scott) had a very difficult time developing his structure, because he had learned WCK with his weight on the heels/whole foot and kept reverting to that instead of keeping his weight on the balls of his foot. So. one day he showed up to our workouts wearing what he called his "structure boots"! These were big, heavy work boots that had an elevated heel that forced his weight to his toes -- he couldn't, even if he wanted to, put his weight on his heel. While we all made fun of him in his funny boots, they did help him develop his structure. I wish I had known of these shoes!

[KPM]

weight ISN'T ON the heels its on 3 points , the generation of quadriceps 'focus point' is the heel, then you can move to toes, called stepping secret stuff ...stepping.

Sorry Kevin. No matter how you slice it, the majority of the weight IS on the heels if that is the pivot point. Its just a biomechanical fact. Trying to convince yourself otherwise won't change that fact. Just try this experiment....in your YGKYM, lean forward so that the majority of your weight is obviously at the balls of your feet. Now try to shift on the heels without transfering your weight back. You'll find that the majority of your weight HAS to be at the pivot point, regardless of what you use for that pivot point. In addition to the points that Jim Hawkins and I have made about the distinction between pivoting on the heels vs. pivoting at the K1 point there is another point concerning control. Pivoting at the K1 point works better at keeping the toes involved to control balance during the shift. Pivoting at the heels requires the toes to "swing" more than pivoting at the K1 point and therefore means they are not functioning as well at controlling the pivot.

Like I said, I have no doubt that people can function very well with the heel pivot. I have seen Wong Shun Leung, Gary Lam, and David Peterson do so on video. I have personally been on the receiving end of Augustine Fong using it on several occasions. But that does not mean that there is not a better way to do it. From a biomechanical standpoint, pivoting on the K1 point with a near 50/50 weight distribution is more optimal and efficient. I'm all about doing things the best way possible, not just following lineage tradition. David Peterson quotes Wong Shun Leung as saying that if anyone could show him a better way of doing things he wanted to learn it! Who knows, if he had seen a biomechanical explanation of the advantages of the K1 pivot he might just have made the switch!

[t_niehoff]

Like I said, I have no doubt that people can function very well with the heel pivot. I have seen Wong Shun Leung, Gary Lam, and David Peterson do so on video. I have personally been on the receiving end of Augustine Fong using it on several occasions.

"Function" at what? Yes, they can make that work in chi sao, in drills, etc. But, if they fought at 100%, they couldn't make it work. Our bodies can't work at 100% when we are not weighted on our toes. This is why all combative athletes, boxers, wrestlers, judoka,etc. ALL are on the balls of their feet.

But that does not mean that there is not a better way to do it. From a biomechanical standpoint, pivoting on the K1 point with a near 50/50 weight distribution is more optimal and efficient.

It's not just pivoting, but being all the balls of your feet in EVERYTHING you do.

I'm all about doing things the best way possible, not just following lineage tradition.

Let application (doing it in fighting) be your sifu.

David Peterson quotes Wong Shun Leung as saying that if anyone could show him a better way of doing things he wanted to learn it! Who knows, if he had seen a biomechanical explanation of the advantages of the K1 pivot he might just have made the switch!

Wong said "show him" a better way. The trouble is that explanations are just intellectual -- what people NEED is to EXPERIENCE it for themselves firsthand.

[LoneTiger108]

It's not just pivoting, but being all the balls of your feet in EVERYTHING you do.

Just to throw something into the mix here, but I don't agree 100%. Yes, the balls of the feet are vital for pivoting, but I would say anyone who has practised sei ping ma with their pole work will know when to use the heel, K1 or whole of the foot to maintain a root for their stance. Even the knife edge of the foot has its use, as do all 5 toes!

Naturally, we walk from heel to toe and there is much of that in mobility work with the pole fme. Again, it's the generalizations that work in certain situations but we must see where changes are made, whether we're using both feet in the same way at once and when they differ slightly depending on our objective.

Does everyone turn the same in both CK and BJ forms?

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=KPM;1062664]Sorry Kevin. No matter how you slice it, the majority of the weight IS on the heels if that is the pivot point. Its just a biomechanical fact. Trying to convince yourself otherwise won't change that fact. Just try this experiment....in your YGKYM, lean forward so that the majority of your weight is obviously at the balls of your feet. Now try to shift on the heels without transfering your weight back. You'll find that the majority of your weight HAS to be at the pivot point, regardless of what you use for that pivot point. In addition to the points that Jim Hawkins and I have made about the distinction between pivoting on the heels vs. pivoting at the K1 point there is another point concerning control. Pivoting at the K1 point works better at keeping the toes involved to control balance during the shift. Pivoting at the heels requires the toes to "swing" more than pivoting at the K1 point and therefore means they are not functioning as well at controlling the pivot.

Like I said, I have no doubt that people can function very well with the heel pivot. I have seen Wong Shun Leung, Gary Lam, and David Peterson do so on video. I have personally been on the receiving end of Augustine Fong using it on several occasions. But that does not mean that there is not a better way to do it. From a biomechanical standpoint, pivoting on the K1 point with a near 50/50 weight distribution is more optimal and efficient. I'm all about doing things the best way possible, not just following lineage tradition. David Peterson quotes Wong Shun Leung as saying that if anyone could show him a better way of doing things he wanted to learn it! Who knows, if he had seen a biomechanical explanation of the advantages of the K1 pivot he might just have made the switch! [/quote)

GLad you feel WSL functions very well Compared to Keiths way

Thanks for info , when your in NYC drop by .

[shawchemical]

How would you know what I am doing? You can't see my control as the skill is in the body movement and termed ' hidden skill' in kung fu. Hidden as you must feel it if you are not at the level to se it.

Yes you don't use your name so you don't have to back up your views.

lol. YOur control should be easily seen in the opponent's movement.

I am using my name moron.

[CFT]

I am using my name moron.

You sound like a pharmaceutical company. Do you have a brother called SmithKline Beecham by any chance?

If the only way you can debate is by using personal insults then I suggest you go back to school.

[bennyvt]

I think this has to do with the body cue ( what we discribe to people to be able to complete the task) and what is actually happening. Like in WSL vt we say use your elbow. This is a way of getting people to use the entire arm to punch, thinking of just the elbow is an easier way of learning then trying to keep the pressure even on the entire arm. Its just way to hard to do. But by thinking of just the elbow the bodies natural tendency to use the wrist will mean that the pressure is even.
We learnt too much weight on the heels means you are pushed back easy and too much and the toes makes it easy to pull you. By having it even your body will naturally change the weightdepending on what is happening. We tend to forget that it is a dynamic movement not just the stance in SLT.
WSL told my teacher that he taught the heels in seminars as it was way too hard to get people to do it properly so he had found people were able to make it work without the proper time put into doing it right.

[CFT]

benny, that is a very *balanced* argument

Seems like even WSLVT, at least via Barry Lee, is working around the K1 point?
Not many people take the time to really slow down and feel what is going on when they turn, punch etc. Though to be honest I'm not sure what that level of introspection will actually give you in terms of results.

Also, I don't think performing the actions in the air is a good way of examining the body mechanics either. You need to be punching against a wallbag to see how the heel, K1, etc. is stressed when punching. You need someone pushing against you when you turn.

Just moving when you are unloaded won't tell you as much as when there is a load. If you can't handle the incoming/outgoing force stably then you will know something isn't quite right.

[bennyvt]

totally agree. The stance is about dynamic movement. The weight changes depending on what direction force is applied. Its funny when you think most people work off the basic toes instance in the form. Problem is the only force when doing the form is from gravity. So when force is applied from a forward or backwards direction (like when actually doing it against a opponent) it makes a big difference. Most make the stance stronger in the basic SLT way by by making the head and back line up with the heels. Look at most VT people and they look like they are leaning back. When put into the fighting stance (and keeping the same angle of the hips) the person would be leaning back with their shoulder behind their heels. The fact that we don't have a front leg means we have to have some weight in front of our toes. When in a fighting position it means that your weight is between your legs, we say (just a guestament) 50 in the back leg 30 in the front and 20 in the waist. this means that the weight is not only in the back leg as this means you are easily posted on it (back leg rammed in the ground). Thinking of the weight in the waist means the weight is slightly infront of the back leg so when force is applied from a horizontal direction it is able to be directed into the back leg while still leaving enough to move if needed. Idea being you resist the force until your waist or structure will give way and then you have to step back to release the excess force. People have really strong YKYM stance as they are only fighting gravity and their own weight and "sit" in their stance. When you think about someone actually hitting you or you striking them the direction of force is different so if the weight is before the toes it means you are doing more of the fighting stance then just sitting fighting gravity

[KPM]

GLad you feel WSL functions very well Compared to Keiths way

Thanks for info , when your in NYC drop by .

No need to roll your eyes at me. That just sounds like an almost polite way of saying that despite logic, common sense, and anatomical fact, you still aren't even considering what has been said. Nothing I have written is "Keith's way." I would have thought that if you were paying attention at all to what I have written you would see that what I am pointing out is simply good biomechanics. I am certainly not the only one, or the first one, to do the pivot this way. But it sounds like you just want to do things a certain way because that is how you have been taught without question. I do question. I look for better ways to do things. I try to keep an open mind. Wasn't Wong Shun Leung famous for say......Wing Chun should be your slave, not your master?