Training for Speed

[Yum Cha]

Something else that causes the 'illusion' of speed is positioning. Having your hands in the right position to execute the attack when the opponent responds as expected.

You have to be loose to generate world class speed. Ali's jab...

Our form Gau Bo Twi, has roughly 108 moves, do it in 4 breaths for the aggressive execution, 2 breaths for the perfect execution. A breath is one in and one out.....yang and yin, all that...

You have to draw fully deep, ( belly, chest, shoulders) and exhale fully like a pump.

[Yum Cha]

yep although all three energy systems are actually in use to differing degrees at differing times with the aerobic system always being used, current research has shown that 400 meter sprints, previously though to be almost wholly anerobic are close to 41% aerobic and 59% anerobic

It would be great to see the curve... And obviously, an individuals fitness profile matters.

Can you train the alactic, or just load it?

[Frost]

It would be great to see the curve... And obviously, an individuals fitness profile matters.

Can you train the alactic, or just load it?

here a study showing the breakown on the relevent energy pathways during running

http://www.athleticscoaching.ca/User...%20Running.pdf

not sure what you are asking you can increase both power outand duration of the alactic through different methods, and also increase its rate of recovery through aerobic training although im not sure increasing its duration is a worthwhile endevour

[Yum Cha]

In that previous thread about "Tendon Power", I think this was introduced as well, as a manner for training for speed.

plyometrics:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/plyometrics.html

@ Frost. Right, you don't increase the duration, you decrease recovery time... in a manner of speaking.

Nice thing about the article is that it gives you a quantifiable benchmark. We all know what a 100m sprint is like. or a 400. 15 seconds or a minute.

[Frost]

In that previous thread about "Tendon Power", I think this was introduced as well, as a manner for training for speed.

plyometrics:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/plyometrics.html

@ Frost. Right, you don't increase the duration, you decrease recovery time... in a manner of speaking.

Nice thing about the article is that it gives you a quantifiable benchmark. We all know what a 100m sprint is like. or a 400. 15 seconds or a minute.

Well you can increase duration but its not really worth the effort, say you work for an 8week block on increasing alactic power, you start at being about to work a maximum amount of time for 7 seconds before power outage drops, after 8 weeeks of intense work you have increased it by say 30 percent (which is a big increase) you are now up to a whopping 9.1 seconds, hardly worth it really, you can make better imporovements in power output which is what you should work on in alactic training (IMHO)

As for your second point the only cravat is that decreasing recovery time is largely a result of aerobic system not the anaerobic system, so you need to work on the aerobic side for several reasons, not just because studies like this show how important aerobic power is to events of even short duration but also because of the studies that show how important the aerobic system is in helping recovery between anaerobic activities (both lactic and alactic)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just wanted to point out that Frost has become a very good asset to this forum.
Excellent work dude, russian strippers have been dispatched to your location for recompense !

[Frost]

I just wanted to point out that Frost has become a very good asset to this forum.
Excellent work dude, russian strippers have been dispatched to your location for recompense !

Are you saying that when I make all those posts insulting goju and HW108, and s******ing at ultimate wingchuns grappling knowledge I was not being an asset?!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you saying that when I make all those posts insulting goju and HW108, and s******ing at ultimate wingchuns grappling knowledge I was not being an asset?!!!!

Who am I to judge?

[PalmStriker]

nope i am not and yes you did but not to worry

tabatas protocal calls for 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest, done for 8 sets

what i talked about was at maximum 10 seconds of work, with 3 to 5 minutes rest between each set, i e complete rest that is nothing like tabata

the effects on the bodies energy systems of the above are as different as night and day, what they try to is also different as night and day, one is looking to increase VO2 max and the other increase alactic power

Most of my own training consists of the 10-15 second speed blasts to develop internal full chi knockdown power. You should also never be "winded" from doing this and agreed rest time, (workout at much slower speed in between also works).

[Yum Cha]

Well you can increase duration but its not really worth the effort, say you work for an 8week block on increasing alactic power, you start at being about to work a maximum amount of time for 7 seconds before power outage drops, after 8 weeeks of intense work you have increased it by say 30 percent (which is a big increase) you are now up to a whopping 9.1 seconds, hardly worth it really, you can make better imporovements in power output which is what you should work on in alactic training (IMHO)

As for your second point the only cravat is that decreasing recovery time is largely a result of aerobic system not the anaerobic system, so you need to work on the aerobic side for several reasons, not just because studies like this show how important aerobic power is to events of even short duration but also because of the studies that show how important the aerobic system is in helping recovery between anaerobic activities (both lactic and alactic)

Good stuff, mang.

[Frost]

Most of my own training consists of the 10-15 second speed blasts to develop internal full chi knockdown power. You should also never be "winded" from doing this and agreed rest time, (workout at much slower speed in between also works).

very good point i like to do short explosive work 10 seconds or less with three minutes of much lower work in the 130-150bpm range, this way you work both alactic and aerobic, the lower workout between also helps recovery

[Yum Cha]

very good point i like to do short explosive work 10 seconds or less with three minutes of much lower work in the 130-150bpm range, this way you work both alactic and aerobic, the lower workout between also helps recovery

What about the 'recovery' period? I was always taught to not simply rest, but to do something active as you recover, at least walking, maybe with some slow lunges, or the like.

I like the idea of that stagger, in the exertion phase, if I'm hearing you correctly. I've always done the 'windsprint' style of training, to the max, then rest, then again. Its kinda like my 'active' resting, but perhaps more strenuous. I'll have to check the pulse...

Any benchmarks for recovery time? I remember with the 12 minute run, there was a pulse upon completion, then what, 1 or 2 minutes later? You should get back to resting pulse in a couple of minutes I believe.

Any ideas on how long would be the "too long" rest to break continuity of a session? When the heart drops below 60% maximum heart rate, I would speculate..maybe higher?

I'm an old bloke, so I always use maximum heart rate and percentages. Makes it easier for me, I need all the help I can get.

[Frost]

What about the 'recovery' period? I was always taught to not simply rest, but to do something active as you recover, at least walking, maybe with some slow lunges, or the like.

I like the idea of that stagger, in the exertion phase, if I'm hearing you correctly. I've always done the 'windsprint' style of training, to the max, then rest, then again. Its kinda like my 'active' resting, but perhaps more strenuous. I'll have to check the pulse...

Any benchmarks for recovery time? I remember with the 12 minute run, there was a pulse upon completion, then what, 1 or 2 minutes later? You should get back to resting pulse in a couple of minutes I believe.

Any ideas on how long would be the "too long" rest to break continuity of a session? When the heart drops below 60% maximum heart rate, I would speculate..maybe higher?

I'm an old bloke, so I always use maximum heart rate and percentages. Makes it easier for me, I need all the help I can get.

Active recovery is the best way to go that’s true, for me active recovery is a HR between 130 and 150bpm and this is what they suggest for most people, the younger you are the higher your working HR should be, the older the lower it should go, even as lower as 120bpm (this is working in the aerobic zone, filling the muscles and heart with oxygen rich blood and helping flush the system and recover for the next effort)

If you are older than me (im 35) then I’d suggest working towards the lower end of the above HR, 130bpm or maybe as low as 120bpm, it should feel easy it should not be too much of an effort

Normally the suggestion is to get HR down to 120bpm before going for the next set (this range will still be working the aerobic system especially in us older athletes)

So for me a workout like this will start with 10 minutes to get the HR up and the blood flowing in the range 130-150bpm, then I’ll do my first explosive set, usually weighted jumps, cleans or box jumps for between 5 and 10 seconds in length, then actively rest 3 min’s between sets doing lower heart rate stuff in the zone 130-150bpm(shadow boxing, jogging, walking, lunges, etc), ill keep repeating this cycle for the required number of sets (usually 6 – 8) before moving on to my next exercise. Keep in mind the more sets you do the longer the rest should be, so if I start at 3 minutes active rest I might move to 4 or even 5 minutes by the end of the work out, I want to be fresh for the later sets if I am working on speed and explosiveness. My last workout lasted 50 minutes and my average HR was 141bpm, which for me means I worked my aerobic capacity at the same time as I worked my alactic power.

Usual guide lines is 3 – 5 minutes between each set, but for me as long as I am actively recovering and keeping HR im my aerobic zone I don’t worry about the rest being too long, I just go after 3 minutes when I feel fresh

Recovery wise I have been told that fighters in shap should be able to get their HR down after a 5minute hard sparring round to 130bpm within a minute of finishing, personally I always test my 1 minute HR recovery after any conditioning session and write it down, if it comes down when I repeat or increase the length of a hard session I know I’m on the right track

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro

I just wanted to point out that Frost has become a very good asset to this forum.
Excellent work dude, russian strippers have been dispatched to your location for recompense
frost
!Are you saying that when I make all those posts insulting goju and HW108, and s******ing at ultimate wingchuns grappling knowledge I was not being an asset?!!!!

I think Frosts attitude changed for the better after the ban for sure. I now enjoy reading his posts and will look forward to sharing in discussions and see his point towards others without haveing to worry about name calling and rude comments. welcome to the adult side on KFO something not seen often.

[Frost]

[Not to argue but I think the actual number of insults I have thrown around in over 2000 posts is quite small (and usually aimed at the wing chun forum in general and HW108 in particular) I feel over the couple of years I have been on here I have offered up good advice on Strength and conditioning, on clinch and grappling, on MMA and what works in that environment and on the street, and on training methods that actually work., Yum cha and I have had some very good discussions on training methods and I don’t think I have ever insulted him even when we didn’t agree, likewise even when Ronin and I disagreed on things, like tabatas I was very cordial (even though he was completely wrong of course ) some things do really wind me up, people pretending they know more than they do or try to make up for training gaps with half truths rather than just admitting there experience in these areas are lacking for example…Or people who would rather throw around insults when they cant back there point of view up…...because I have seen too much of this and it leads people on (both on forums and in classes)

I prefer people to be honest , because admitting when we don’t know something, or haven’t really been exposed to something and that we have training gap and knowledge gapsis a good thing, it means we are open to new things and new experiences.