WCK rotation isn't like boxing

[t_niehoff]

If you do the forms and exercises of WCK and examine the rotation (body turning), you will see that in WCK we keep our shoulders always directly over our hips, even when turning/shifting. When we turn/shift, our hips and shoulders turn at the same time as a unit, always maintaining that shoulder-directly-over-hip alignment. This is the basis for WCK's "connected power."

In boxing, however, you see the shoulders often move independent of, although in conjunction with, the hips. So the upper torso will twist more than the lower torso.

These are two very different ways of rotating and work differently, in different circumstances, etc.

Why does WCK rotate the way it does, and in a way different from boxing/kickboxing?

[JockSparrow]

In a rush before leaving for training, but in a nutshell, I'd say it's a function of range and attachment

1) Because the boxers & k/boxers aren't seeking to control whilst hitting.

Also,

2) The range for effective striking with boxing gloves is longer than for bare knuckle or MMA gloves, & therefore dictates that more rotation can be utilised.

Or maybe not. I'll think about it more whilst hitting people tonight :-)

[LoneTiger108]

Why does WCK rotate the way it does, and in a way different from boxing/kickboxing?

Because you have yet to understand the way the body arrives in an attack? Thinking that the basic 'image' of a form is where it ends?

Or maybe you're just stuck on Chum Kiu?

[t_niehoff]

Because you have yet to understand the way the body arrives in an attack? Thinking that the basic 'image' of a form is where it ends?

Or maybe you're just stuck on Chum Kiu?

The forms and the drills/exercises teach us WCK movement -- how to perform the actions/movement of WCK. Are you suggesting that we don't move like we learn and practice? That we learn and practice moving one way to throw it out and move another? Is that your brilliant idea? Your "understanding"?

And, yes, you are confused. That is what happens when you are a theoretical nonfighter.

[trubblman]

My 2 cents. Most asian martial arts derived from China have the idea that the shoulder and hip move as a unit. I have always thought it had to do with the idea of internal power generation. Look at Tai Chi for instance, the waist and shoulders move as a unit, as well as straight spine, head positioned as if on a strung. Sound familiar?

Boxing also relies on striking from various angles; the shoulders rotate in different planes. Power is also generated from the feet and hips but it seems as if its more of a coiling rotation power whereas I guess wing chun power is more straight line. Again its my 2 cents.

[Ironmike]

To maintain proper structure

[LoneTiger108]

The forms and the drills/exercises teach us WCK movement -- how to perform the actions/movement of WCK. Are you suggesting that we don't move like we learn and practice? That we learn and practice moving one way to throw it out and move another? Is that your brilliant idea? Your "understanding"?

No it is not T. I actually thought that was your approach to WCK?

What I'm saying is, if you believe that, as an example, Chum Kiu is about developing power through various turning sets, then you would have developed your Chum Kiu beyond what is shown to beginners. In other words, if you learnt Chum Kiu without really understanding and training all the sets in Siu Lim Tao, what have you got?

Some crazy frogg robotic movements that tend to degenerate through time!! As one hobby man picks it up and passes it on to another it just loses it's purpose and meaning. Another reason why I believe the forms are useless if learnt in such a casual way.

Just my two cents!

[m1k3]

Not going to comment on the wing chun striking rotation but you have oversimplified the boxing rotation. While a jab or a cross may have separate shoulder and hip rotation close in strikes like hooks, shovel hooks and uppercuts utilize a shoulder hip alignment for power.

Boxing does not lock itself into one way of throwing punches.

Look at the pivot of the left foot when throwing a left hook. Hip, shoulder and body weight all in one synchronized motion.

You can make any statements about wing chun striking you like and argue about how its done, but if you are going to make comments about boxing punches please try to get it right occasionally.

[t_niehoff]

No it is not T. I actually thought that was your approach to WCK?

What I'm saying is, if you believe that, as an example, Chum Kiu is about developing power through various turning sets,

No it's not.

then you would have developed your Chum Kiu beyond what is shown to beginners. In other words, if you learnt Chum Kiu without really understanding and training all the sets in Siu Lim Tao, what have you got?

It has nothing to do with "understanding". The sets/forms don't provide any "training" -- they are a reference for teaching.

Your whole premise is nonsense.

Some crazy frogg robotic movements that tend to degenerate through time!! As one hobby man picks it up and passes it on to another it just loses it's purpose and meaning. Another reason why I believe the forms are useless if learnt in such a casual way.

Just my two cents!

and that's about what your view is worth.

[t_niehoff]

Not going to comment on the wing chun striking rotation but you have oversimplified the boxing rotation. While a jab or a cross may have separate shoulder and hip rotation close in strikes like hooks, shovel hooks and uppercuts utilize a shoulder hip alignment for power.

Boxing does not lock itself into one way of throwing punches.

Look at the pivot of the left foot when throwing a left hook. Hip, shoulder and body weight all in one synchronized motion.

You can make any statements about wing chun striking you like and argue about how its done, but if you are going to make comments about boxing punches please try to get it right occasionally.

I was referring to straight punches (both WCK and boxing).

[trubblman]

I have always considered Ali one of the greatest practitioners of a "soft approach" to boxing. Ali v. Foreman where he used the rope a dope technique. His arms were hanging down at his side, when he loops a punch up with what looks like almost no tension and knocks out Foreman. Although the punch probably would not have felled Foreman if he were not tired.

[m1k3]

I was referring to straight punches (both WCK and boxing).

Ok, a well thrown right cross travels about 18 inches and the shoulders and hips are in alignment. The more the shoulder and hip go out of alignment the more the fighter was at an incorrect distance and ended up reaching to make contact. The more the shoulder and hip go out of alignment the more off balance the boxer will be, the harder it will be for him to recover and he is setting himself up for a left hook to the ribs or liver.

A jab is a different story because even though a jab is a punch it is often not a punch. It is a distraction, a range finder, a way to take up space, a way to set up a rhythm and a way to disrupts your opponents rhythm. But a left jab thrown with bad intentions will still adhere to the shoulder hip alignment.

The best way I've heard it described is that you are slamming a door and the foot on the same side as the punch is the hinge.

K?

[t_niehoff]

Ok, a well thrown right cross travels about 18 inches and the shoulders and hips are in alignment. The more the shoulder and hip go out of alignment the more the fighter was at an incorrect distance and ended up reaching to make contact. The more the shoulder and hip go out of alignment the more off balance the boxer will be, the harder it will be for him to recover and he is setting himself up for a left hook to the ribs or liver.

A jab is a different story because even though a jab is a punch it is often not a punch. It is a distraction, a range finder, a way to take up space, a way to set up a rhythm and a way to disrupts your opponents rhythm. But a left jab thrown with bad intentions will still adhere to the shoulder hip alignment.

The best way I've heard it described is that you are slamming a door and the foot on the same side as the punch is the hinge.

K?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKXqk0PeVGY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVOfXsNxEmQ

[m1k3]

T. look at your first post at 2:26. His hip and shoulder are aligned. His shoulder is not rotating out of parallel with his hips. At that point he begins to pull back the punch. To rotate the shoulder ****her than that would put you out of balance and unable to recover and cover quickly.

As I said in my post the left jab is a different animal because it is a multi purpose tool. Still when throwing a lead power shot the same rules apply.

[t_niehoff]

T. look at your first post at 2:26. His hip and shoulder are aligned. His shoulder is not rotating out of parallel with his hips. At that point he begins to pull back the punch. To rotate the shoulder ****her than that would put you out of balance and unable to recover and cover quickly.

As I said in my post the left jab is a different animal because it is a multi purpose tool. Still when throwing a lead power shot the same rules apply.

They END up aligned, but they move at slightly different times (there is a lag). The shoulders/hips rotate separately (not as a unit) and the waist twisting so that one can follow the other (much like throwing a ball). I agree that if you ended up with shoulders not over hips, then you would be off balance.