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Thread: How do you defend aginst a front shove

  1. #61
    I reapeat, it takes 900 lbs to break someones cervical vertabrea and a human CANNOT generate this much force with thier arms. even if its a big guy littel girl as sny said, just cant happen unless your in hollywood then you can by twisting it quickly...
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    a human CANNOT generate this much force with thier arms.
    i disagree.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    I reapeat, it takes 900 lbs to break someones cervical vertabrea and a human CANNOT generate this much force with thier arms. even if its a big guy littel girl as sny said, just cant happen unless your in hollywood then you can by twisting it quickly...
    i wanna hear TGY's opinion on it... he'll dead it for me... as of this moment tho, i think ur wrong... ive seen dudes tear phonebooks in half, do crazy strong sh!t with grip and arm power... its hard for me to believe there arent some people that could twist a lil kids head off...

  4. #64
    also if you can trip on a shoelace and break your neck... and it does happen even tho its a freak occcurance.... why not with a lil help?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    EarthDragon;
    I myself can only go by what my sifu has told me because I have never snapped anyones neck. Although theoretical the way I do it seems plausable, however I am not bone specialist. AND I would have never used Fa Jing on my staudent. I would lose all that tuition money !

    ginosifu

    ps. I trust you when say It can't be done...
    Whether one can generate 900 lbs of force (what scientific study did this come from?) or not, the technique you demonstrate can certainly injure the spinal cord. Breaking cervical vertebrae is not necessary to injure the spinal cord. So, I think it is certainly a valid technique.

    Though against a front shove, a nonlethal technique, I would simply lift double hooks (tiao shuang gou) to deflect the opponent's force upward. A spontaneous response may be enough to let the attacker know he may have bit off more than he can chew and he may break off the engagement.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 12-04-2010 at 09:10 AM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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  6. #66
    UKI
    i disagree.
    why? and form what medical knowledge woudl you base this disagreement on?

    Sny7,
    i wanna hear TGY's opinion on it... he'll dead it for me... as of this moment tho, i think ur wrong... ive seen dudes tear phonebooks in half, do crazy strong sh!t with grip and arm power... its hard for me to believe there arent some people that could twist a lil kids head off...
    are we talking about super human strength in 1 % of individuals? or teaching and learning a neck breaking technique to the masses?

    also are you talking about a strong grown man twitsing a little kids neck? come on lets keep this realistic we only beat up lilttle girls...

    also if you can trip on a shoelace and break your neck... and it does happen even tho its a freak occcurance.... why not with a lil help?
    freak accidents cannot be in the same catagory as a neck breaking technique taught by a MA teacher

    mooying
    Whether one can generate 900 lbs of force (what scientific study did this come from?)
    I learned bone setting and cranial sacrum therapy another name for chiropractor, in my OM studies. With this cours you learn joint manipulation, degrees of movement and motion, placments, alignment.
    Along with this you learn trama, fractures, breakage, tendon tears and ligaments, facia etc etc. when you are talking about breaking the vertebrea you are dealing with fracturing the articular process and transvers process or the smal section of the pedicle or lamnia. Any area of this bone cannot just be twisted and break. You can also ask any chiropractor this is common knowledge in thsi field.

    not, the technique you demonstrate can certainly injure the spinal cord. Breaking cervical vertebrae is not necessary to injure the spinal cord. So, I think it is certainly a valid technique.
    I will agree you can damage the spinal cord if pinched, but agin this is super human strength to tiwst the neck in s uch a way that the body wont protect itself. sometiems the force of a car accident can cause swelling and inflamation whip lash, but I would say no one can creat the same force of a 30 mile an hour crash with thier bare hands..

    Though against a front shove, a nonlethal technique, I would simply lift double hooks (tiao shuang gou) to deflect the opponent's force upward.
    Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post


    Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......
    I'll try to address this later, but in short, it depends on how they are pushing.
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  8. #68
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    LOL I like how its so casual here to be like you're just gonna up and go breakin' necks. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no one has actually snapped someone's neck before. Amiright? Cervical vertebrae are small. That alone isn't much protection from rotational forces. However, there something like off the top of my head....like 22 muscles that contribute to the movement of the head/neck (rectus capitus muscles, splenius muscles, spinalis/semispinalis muscles, scalene groups, longissimus muscles, obliquus, iliocostalis group, sternocleidomastoid muscles..... That's just the neck and by extension the back. We aren't even talking about having to control the rest of their body in relation to positioning of their neck, keeping them from pulverizing you while you are trying to go hulk on their neck....

    Really? REALLY? See this is why some of you guys get such a hard time and what KF used to bag about. This is the perfect example of a "too deadly" technique that absolutely none of you have actually used and probably have no way of even practicing. There's a 983.26 things you could be doing that will be more plausible, feasible, successful and ultimately get you in much much less trouble both practicing and implementing than this movie fu. In a front shove thread no less lol. "Hey Timmy, Billy is going to pretend to be a bully in the hallway pushing you against your locker. Show us neck snap defense #4..." Oh boy oh boy...

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    ?

    Sny7,


    are we talking about super human strength in 1 % of individuals? or teaching and learning a neck breaking technique to the masses?

    also are you talking about a strong grown man twitsing a little kids neck? come on lets keep this realistic we only beat up lilttle girls...


    freak accidents cannot be in the same catagory as a neck breaking technique taught by a MA teacher
    i think maybe you need to read back a bit and get a handle on what i was actually talking about... a long time ago we all pretty much agreed its a dumb thing to practice and it will never work... we've been thru that... catch up, son... go back, re-read everything again... and if by then you still dunno what im saying, then just drop it.... its not a discussion you are capable of participating in...


    im pretty sure most of the people in here who arent complete tcma fundamentalist weirdos agree that the whole neck breaking thing is just stupid... not once did i say i thought it was a good idea...

    somebody said it wasnt possible... so i went into what i thought the possibilities were... and although i dont think one could pull this off in a fight i do think it can be done under ideal circcumstances... i just dont buy it, that the neck cant be broken like that...
    Last edited by Syn7; 12-04-2010 at 02:13 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......
    Not directed at me but my line of thinking is:

    Someone shoving you, your upper body goes back. That's just how it is, force applied on chect --> torso goes back. So what do you do? You step back to maintain balance. Right? So while directing down is ok against those punk ass little pushes that are from *****s trying to intimidate you, its not as good against a real forceful shove. Because you're torso goes back, your reach is lost and you're in a crappy position retreating. Direct up and now they're extended up and you have a window to counter. Direct down and they have a shot at grabbing your shirt or something and tying you up. Direct up and they have to recover their own arms before taking further action. Plus I like to clinch on my own terms not theirs. Your arms are lower than theirs, go in give a good shot to the breadbasket and dump truck their ass.

    My real life scenario...about 10 years ago my car was broken down and I was stuck walking. Some douche attacked me and got it in his head he wanted to throw me into oncoming traffic. So he was shoving pretty hard. I didn't know jack about grappling at the time and tried to do the whole elbow down into his antecubital thing and lobbed some punched and stuff but he grabbed hold of my shirt. Luckily I was big enough to keep from going into the street. I eventually broke clinch and was able to get away. Knowing what I know now though, redirect up and drive into him and take it away from the street and do what I can do in a safer location (ie pick him up and drop him on his head), rough him up a bit then get a safe distance between us.
    Last edited by SoCo KungFu; 12-04-2010 at 08:22 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    also if you can trip on a shoelace and break your neck... and it does happen even tho its a freak occcurance.... why not with a lil help?
    You hear stories about crazy stuff like this. But there's a difference. Things like this you're talking about a sudden abrupt application of force on a specific location on a person's neck in a situation where they likely weren't ready to receive that force (their muscles were relaxed and they had no time to counter the forces being that it was a blow on their landing). Where as these neck cranks we're talking about a situation where someone has the ability to perceive the threat, feel the application of force and in turn react with a counter force and/or reposition while countering/scrambling.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu View Post
    You hear stories about crazy stuff like this. But there's a difference. Things like this you're talking about a sudden abrupt application of force on a specific location on a person's neck in a situation where they likely weren't ready to receive that force (their muscles were relaxed and they had no time to counter the forces being that it was a blow on their landing). Where as these neck cranks we're talking about a situation where someone has the ability to perceive the threat, feel the application of force and in turn react with a counter force and/or reposition while countering/scrambling.
    no no i am not saying one can break a neck of another adult with a neck crank... awhile back somebody posted that it was impossible PERIOD... all im saying is that it is possible and can happen... given the right conditions i think one could litterally pull anothers head off given a certain frailty in one and the massiveness of another... just theoretical sh!t... not in a fight... although i do believe that some so called breaking techniques could still be useful as cranks... and if you pulled a neck muscle which would be reletively easy you could really set them back and limit their mobility... i saw a dude get right fukced up by a can opener... if yall know what that is.... its a type of crank... not even a bad ass one... and it put this cat out of commish for almost two years... and its still not healed properly... he's damaged for life... and there was nerve damage too... and this was in a sanctioned submission grappling match... refs judges and all... so imagine how it could be used on the street when the guy taps and you pull harder cause you want him done....

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    no no i am not saying one can break a neck of another adult with a neck crank... awhile back somebody posted that it was impossible PERIOD... all im saying is that it is possible and can happen... given the right conditions i think one could litterally pull anothers head off given a certain frailty in one and the massiveness of another... just theoretical sh!t... not in a fight... although i do believe that some so called breaking techniques could still be useful as cranks... and if you pulled a neck muscle which would be reletively easy you could really set them back and limit their mobility... i saw a dude get right fukced up by a can opener... if yall know what that is.... its a type of crank... not even a bad ass one... and it put this cat out of commish for almost two years... and its still not healed properly... he's damaged for life... and there was nerve damage too... and this was in a sanctioned submission grappling match... refs judges and all... so imagine how it could be used on the street when the guy taps and you pull harder cause you want him done....
    Yeah some cranks can hurt like a *****.

  14. #74
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    [QUOTE=EarthDragon;1064405]I will agree you can damage the spinal cord if pinched, but agin this is super human strength to tiwst the neck in s uch a way that the body wont protect itself. sometiems the force of a car accident can cause swelling and inflamation whip lash, but I would say no one can creat the same force of a 30 mile an hour crash with thier bare hands.QUOTE]

    EarthDragon: I am sorry if you mis intrepted my posts that the break of the neck is a twist. It is NOT a neck twist, it is a snap of the neck downward while the head is twisted sideways and using the weight of my body on top of his head. Look Here at about :20 seconds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4D7BtOMzA

    Also for everyone one out there.. No necks have been broken ever by me, nor do I wish this on anyone. Someone asked a question about If I had to kill to stay alive. An Example might be if apprached by several oppnents at the same time, and ALL had the intent to kill me. If there was no where to run I might try killing people as quickly as I could to stand and fight the next person. This is an extreme example but it happened to my brother. My brother kicked, punched and ran! He lived thru it, but took alot of blows and had internal bleeding a big crack on his skull. The morale is hopefully we will not have to go thru any of that but if it happened to you?

    ginosifu

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    mooying


    I learned bone setting and cranial sacrum therapy another name for chiropractor, in my OM studies. With this cours you learn joint manipulation, degrees of movement and motion, placments, alignment.
    Along with this you learn trama, fractures, breakage, tendon tears and ligaments, facia etc etc. when you are talking about breaking the vertebrea you are dealing with fracturing the articular process and transvers process or the smal section of the pedicle or lamnia. Any area of this bone cannot just be twisted and break. You can also ask any chiropractor this is common knowledge in thsi field.


    I will agree you can damage the spinal cord if pinched, but agin this is super human strength to tiwst the neck in s uch a way that the body wont protect itself. sometiems the force of a car accident can cause swelling and inflamation whip lash, but I would say no one can creat the same force of a 30 mile an hour crash with thier bare hands..



    Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......
    Mike,
    Applying pressure to the neck in the way Gino demonstrates (bending and dropping the body weight on it) doesn't require much pressure to injure the neck muscles, even if you take the vertebra and the spinal cord out of the picture.
    I don't at all question your expertise in OM, just wondered if there was an actual scientific/medical study for the 900 lbs. of pressure statement. Such facts and figures always catch my attention, being the anal kind of person I am.

    Why redirect upwards? In a surprise encounter, I would expect that my hands would be in the lower gate. Therefore, rising would be the natural movement. And as SoCo Kungfu said, "Direct up and now their extended up and you have a window to counter". Directing down covers their vitals with their arms and upper torso. It also sets yourself up for the opponent to shoot in on you if they go with your force. Of course, forcing their energy downwards is valid. I just prefer making their vitals my vittles if the need arises.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 12-04-2010 at 07:25 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

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