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Thread: Shuai Chiao for mma

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    this is part of what i meant (a big part), plus wrestling is a jackless sport, as is MMA, and although there is a cross over between the two you have to modify what you do with a jacket to what you do without one, not only is wrestling open to a bigger competition pool its rule set it is also easy to transition from, plus it has a ground game of sort

    Also since judo and wrestling do have ground elements the throw takes this into account, how you land is almost as important as how you throw, SC does not have this, just see the clips posted on this post lovely sweep in one of them, but the opponent has plenty of room and space to get back up

    judo has a ground game so at least you will learn pins, submissions and get ups, thats why i listed it as i did, no hatred of CMA just an honest opinion
    also wreslers do very well because in wrestling you are rewarded for big tosses...
    people always ask "bjj is so advanced on the ground but the takedowns suck and more often than not its a "drag down" as opposed to a takedown... in bjj you arent rewarded any more for what would be a 5 point throw in wretling... in bjj the big points are in mounts, top or back... whereas in wretling, you can win on takedowns alone, without ever touching the mat...

    an example... i had a friendly pis$ing contest with a good bjj player and it got intense quick... i didnt like him, he ****ed me off with his attitude so i went out to break him after he started getting too serious... i hit him wiyth a giant double... he got his guard, i backed out and let him stand... two seconds later, BAM 5 point throw... back off, let him up, bang, huge double... backed off... did it again and again till he gave up... i had no game on the floor compared to this guy but i could take him down hard and at will... i won... i never hit him either, but could have many times... dont underestimate a wrestler man... best base for mma IMO...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    also wreslers do very well because in wrestling you are rewarded for big tosses...
    people always ask "bjj is so advanced on the ground but the takedowns suck and more often than not its a "drag down" as opposed to a takedown... in bjj you arent rewarded any more for what would be a 5 point throw in wretling... in bjj the big points are in mounts, top or back... whereas in wretling, you can win on takedowns alone, without ever touching the mat...

    an example... i had a friendly pis$ing contest with a good bjj player and it got intense quick... i didnt like him, he ****ed me off with his attitude so i went out to break him after he started getting too serious... i hit him wiyth a giant double... he got his guard, i backed out and let him stand... two seconds later, BAM 5 point throw... back off, let him up, bang, huge double... backed off... did it again and again till he gave up... i had no game on the floor compared to this guy but i could take him down hard and at will... i won... i never hit him either, but could have many times... dont underestimate a wrestler man... best base for mma IMO...

    Yep but thatís not the point I was making, Iím trying not to make it a wrestling v BJJ or tcma s*cks thread (Iím being a good boy these days) instead I wanted to be impartial and look at what wrestling/takedown art would be best for MMA (I happen to agree with you as shaolinís last fight showed he who dictates range wins the fight and that is generally the wrestler).

    Irrespective of art form, your personal background or bias the questions you have to ask are as follows:

    1) how easy do the skills cross over to the venue you are looking to compete in? (the less modifications you have to make the more time efficient it will be. Arts that donít allow a ground game, donít generally follow the takedown to the mat for dominate position and which teaches grips etc which have to be modified no gi are not that efficient)
    2) how big is the talent pool (the bigger the talent pool the better the level of teaching and the better you will get, generally)
    3) How easy is it to find good instruction (the bigger the talent pool the easy it is generally to find good instruction, and the more often teams are encouraged to compete the easier it is to see where good instruction can be found)

    For me all of the above point to a clear winner in the USA being wrestling (in western Europe it will probably be judo)

  3. #18
    nah it wasnt a diss on bjj or tcma... i like both... i practice both... but i agree, you should aquire skill sets that are most easilly transferable to your chosen rule set... diversifying is the key... i just say wrestling is best for mma because all you have to do is be a wet carpet for 15 minutes and hold a guy down like you wouldve been doing for years... boring fight, no doubt... but a W none the less... throw in some more dynamic skill sets... learn to work off ur back and how to avoid getting caught up in someones guard... wrstlers make some very common mistakes with bjj, like when they try to back out of guard and get caught, or fall right into the bjj trap and follow your natural instincts, you shrug one way and your done... or giving their neck while shooting... or holding on while some kickboxer repeatedly knees you in the face, total survival instinct for a wrestler in an mma match where he's being beat up, take the shot, hold on for dear life... it can work, but it does suggest a limited range of skills.... but once you get over that, learn to strike... its money...

  4. #19
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    despite any personal biases wrestling/throwing arts dictate the position of the fight.

    even if a striker with godly DEFENSIVELY wrestler can dictate the fight to be standing.

    but a better wrestler will still put you on your back.

    GG.
    It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Designs View Post
    despite any personal biases wrestling/throwing arts dictate the position of the fight.
    The TCMA guideline is "If your opponent's weight is on the front leg, you attack low. If your oppponent's weight is on the back leg, you attack high". The reason is simple. If your opponent has less weight on his front leg, it will be very easy for him to pull his leading leg back and lead your shooting into the "emptiness". This is very important guideline in CMA. I'm not sure wrestlers folllow this guideline. It seems to me that they like to attack low no matter how their opponrnt's weight distributation may be. Does wrestler use "head lock" at all?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-05-2010 at 07:26 PM.

  6. #21
    I'm not sure wrestlers folllow this guideline. It seems to me that they like to attack low no matter how their opponrnt's weight distributation may be. Does wrestler use "head lock" at all?
    the wreslters at my school shoot no matter weight distribution, actually most fo them said the weight should alwys be 50/50 since its hard to crouch with uneven weight dist.

    and yes headlocks are allowed , but neck turning is not... ie you cannot lead the head to turn holding the chin.
    we must always remember when comparing
    1. wrestling and MMA are SPORTS, kung uf is not, hard to compare sports that have rules to kung fu that has none.
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    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    1. wrestling and MMA are SPORTS, kung uf is not, hard to compare sports that have rules to kung fu that has none.
    This is silly. I agree they are sports. They are sports with rules. I would also agree that sports with rules are not "teh deadly street."

    Do you spar in your Kung Fu? When you spar, are there rules? There must be some kind of rules - perhaps the most damaging techniques are pulled, ie controlled sparring. Perhaps those techniques are not even thrown. Perhaps eyegouging, groin strikes, or full speed standing joint breaks are disallowed. Perhaps you wear pads or gloves.

    There are some rules, somewhere.

    The point is only this - there are always rules.

    If you're practicing without rules, then you're a liar, or stupid, or both. Or even if you choose to pick bar fights or something to test your kung fu in a no rules environment, that can't possibly form the bulwark of your training. (it also falls under the stupid category).

    No - there are ALWAYS rules.

    What people really get their panties in a twist about is what rules to follow.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronWeasel View Post
    Prolly because Judo is more for sport than for combat.

    Just as mma is more of a sport than actual combat.
    Thats so weird because I'm pretty sure not one of these people who supposedly train for "actual combat" could deal in a street fight with an MMA fighter.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    the wreslters at my school shoot no matter weight distribution,
    http://cdn3.iofferphoto.com/img/item...TzUh7ZXKOM.jpg

    The professional wrestling use "head lock". Are professional wrestling and American wrestling the same thing?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-05-2010 at 08:26 PM.

  10. #25
    Shuai Chiao is a big part of our MMA program and works nicely for MMA, so I'd say for it if you can find a good teacher.

  11. #26
    merry ,
    obviously you know the answers to the questions you asked, yes its a controlled sparring. My point was there is only survival when in a street confrontation. in the ring its a gentlmans game that have rules, guidlines, do's and dont's whatever you want to call it.
    I accidently kicked a guy low and inside once cracked his cup and it dropped him to the matt for a long 2minutes, and I felt horrible for doing so, so much so that I didnt even want to throw a kick at him for the rest of the bout.

    In the street I would have aimed for the same shot and did it twice with rage and a kill or be killed mentality, so sometimes the rules are to not get hurt, so in this case yes you are correct there are always rules.

    Mutant
    Shuai Chiao is a big part of our MMA program and works nicely for MMA
    can you eleborate on this? I find it difficult to perform most of the throws in SC as they are executed from a joint lock or the lead in is hard to present based on the hinderences and non comittle approach of your opponent. In a MMA setting or a tied up situation that doesnt happned very often exepct for chan tui, ya tiao or twai dung. Please understand I have been doing and teaching SC for some years so its not like I dont know how to throw. thanks in advance
    Last edited by EarthDragon; 12-05-2010 at 09:24 PM.
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  12. #27
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    If you know what contact points that you need for your throws, you can use your kicks to close in, use your punches to obtain those contact points that you need.

    For example, if you have right leg forward, and your opponent has left leg forward (mirror stance). a right hook punch to your opponent's head will give you a chance to wrap your right arm over your opponent's left arm and end with an underhook or waist surround. With or without your left arm wrapping around your opponent's right arm, you can move in with a 搵(Wen) or 蹩(Bie).

    The day that you think you are an octopus, and enjoy to use your arms to wrap your opponent like Royce Gracie did in his ground game, the day that you will integrate your throwing skill into your striking skill.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-05-2010 at 10:10 PM.

  13. #28
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    In our school for what we do as sparring, we focus more on countering what the opponent gives us, then when it comes to a technique like an eye gouge, we simulate. the other person is supposed to acknowledge, but that obviously doesnt always happen. When training stubborn students we may sometimes have to hit the opponent lightly to get them to acknowledge the technique, but we dont hurt each other during this type of training on purpose, but if they still dont learn, sometimes its necessary. Stuborness can be a dangerous weakness. The whole point is to learn how to react, how to counter, and how to use what the opponent gives you to win.

  14. #29
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    This includes training Chin Na, Shuai Jiao, strikes, kicks, pressure points, eye gouges, chokes, etc. Im just saying because it is a safe way to train and can let you know what is possible, even if not always using combat speed and power. After a while, it becomes embedded in you and it happens naturally.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
    Shuai Chiao is a big part of our MMA program and works nicely for MMA, so I'd say for it if you can find a good teacher.
    Thats cool, so are any of these people actively competing?

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