Tan Tui questions

[TopCrusader]

While reading about the history of Tan Tui, I ran across the idea that Tan Tui is a common form and also a style unto itself? Possibly of Muslim origin?

Does anybody know more about the idea/history of Tan Tui being a style onto itself? Seems like it would have to be multiple forms or very long forms later combined into one if earlier it was its own style.

Also, I saw a list where "Tam Tuei" (Im assuming another way of saying Tan Tui) is listed, and further down the list "Springing Leg" is also listed. What confuses me, is I thought springing legs was the English way of saying Tam Tui.

Here is what I mean:
（7）潭腿门（TAM TUEI）

（9）弹腿门（SPRINGING LEG）


So, my question is what is the difference? Does one refer to the style and the other refer to the form?
Thanks


Source:
http://www.jieqdao.cn/jiequandaozong...810/20-37.html

[YouKnowWho]

弹腿(Tsan Tui) is one of the Longfist brenches besides 查(Zha), 花(Hua), 洪(Hong), and 炮(Pao). I believe Tan Tui is the only form in the Tan family. Many Longfist guys cross train all brenches.

[RenDaHai]

On TanTuiMen

Tan Tui is indeed a complete style unto itself.

Like many wushu styles in china it is not of muslim origin, however it is largely passed down within muslim communities. Being a minority they have to protect themselves and so have a history of passing down very effective martial arts. Few of the arts are of muslim origin, although many of the best masters are often muslim.

Tan has two name variations, one meaning 'pond, pool' , the other meaning flick, spring.

Originally it is from 'Long Tan Si' or 'The Temple of the Dragon Pool'. So it is called Tan Tui, 'The leg of Long Tan Temple'. Off course in chinese Tan (pool) and Tan (flick) are pronounced similar, and when you look at it it contains a lot of leg flicking action, so the name gradually got changed to Tan (flick). Although both variations are still common.

It bears close relation to the classic longfist (Hong, Pao, Hua, Zha) styles and is often practiced with them together.

The Tan Tui is often practiced as 12 short sequences done going one way and back the other. There is huge variation around china, although they are all kind of similar. In its history it was a kicking style mixed with shaolin luohan quan and became a new routine.

But Tantui doesn't just contain the 12 roads (sometimes 10, 16, 24 etc). It also has regular forms. Often these extra forms are refferred to as being of 'Tantuimen' or 'ER LANG MEN'. They are also generally considered to be Shaolinesque. ('Er Lang' is a powerful god in chinese mythology).

Er Lang men contains a huge amount of forms. It looks very similar to standard longfist (Zha, HOng, Hua, Pao).

Interestingly many of the standard fist forms of JING WU (Chin woo athletic association) are of Er Lang Men. Forms include the Shaolin Battle sets, ZHAN QUAN (distantly related to shaolin, many shaolin techniques). Jie quan, Shaolin Gong Li quan and many others. These sets are quite well known in the west. They can be said to be TanTuiMen (Men is short for MenPai which means a style, type, brand, sect).

[bawang]

tan tui is remnant of extinct older chinese kung fu training where there was no set choreographed forms called "freestyle training"

[RenDaHai]

Hey Bawang,

Typically Chinese Kung Fu was split into 3 categories;

Civilian, Ascetic and Military.

Most of the military styles actually contain no forms. They just contain moves.

Examples are Some versions of Tantui, XinYi, XinYiLiuHe, XingYi, PiGua, TongBei, Bashanfan (FanZi, many variations), Chuojiao, Baji, Jingang Bashi, Pao quan (some versions)........

Although all of these styles have variations that contain Taolu, the larger number just contain the individual moves drilled in lines and while striking something/one. These styles also represent the main body of wushu technique.

[bawang]

traditionally chinese martial arts is divided into three groups: effective, too complicated, flowery. there is no such thing as "civilian" martial arts

[David Jamieson]

traditionally chinese martial arts is divided into three groups: effective, too complicated, flowery. there is no such thing as "civilian" martial arts

There is no such thing as only one way and no change. lol

Yes there are civilian martial arts. They are the martial arts that all the civilians are practicing daily in the kwoons and dojos and dojangs and gyms. They are not military, they are not police, they are regular people doing martial arts and therefore are civilian.

There is no one definitive text regarding chinese martial arts. It is all bits and pieces and voids that have been lost to time or to the structure of teacher/student oral transmission tradition.

Chinese martial arts are in a state of constant flux and change. You are referencing one text alone from a particular era with a military perspective that may have been reiterated through time but is not necessarily the be all and end all of it.

[bawang]

There is no one definitive text regarding chinese martial arts. It is all bits and pieces and voids that have been lost to time or to the structure of teacher/student oral transmission tradition.

new miltiary strategy is over 1000 pages . wu bei zhi is 240 chapters....

Chinese martial arts are in a state of constant flux and change.

comparing northern martial arts and the old texts, its been unchanged for over 500 years.

You are referencing one text alone from a particular era with a military perspective that may have been reiterated through time but is not necessarily the be all and end all of it.

im referencing famous generals in history who saved china. they gave open critisicm of chinese martial arts.

so called "artistic" "civilian" "aesthetic" martial arts caused many humiliating military defeats:
"thousands running before hundreds"
"calling out to mothers and fathers"
"being chopped in half"
"so badly trained they cower on the ground in fetal position when they hear the cannon"

quoting general qijiguang "this job of killing people, is it supposed to look good?"
"you want to see a military drill, or a circus show?"

[RenDaHai]

No, Its nothing official, its a basic classification we use when we talk about styles of kung fu. With most teachers I've had in china when we talk about martial arts we talk about them as being one of the three major classifications. Its a loose definition but sums things up well enough.

Because typically MA fit into one of three categories;

1.Civilian/Police/Personal contains lots of defense techniques, many restraints, typically complicated ugly dictionary like forms. Used by police restraining people, people scuffling and wrestling , street fighting, requires intermediate training time. Typical examples would be; Mantis, WingChun (Bawang these are your 'TOO COMPLICATED')

2.Ascetic, for self realization/ health. Contains very difficult very beautiful abstract forms. The focus of training is on goals other than straight combat, although off course that features. Lots of abstract training. requires very long training time. Typical examples include Shaolin, Wudang, Emei, Taiji, etc (Bawang these are your FLOWERY)

3.Military, Only to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. Typically no forms, just individual techniques drilled with a partener, alone or against a tree or similar object. Contains mainly attacks, only moving foreward. Generally in attack starting from non contact. Very simple, requires very short training time. Typical styles include XinYi, Chuojiao, Pigua,... (Bawang these are your 'EFFECTIVE').


In relation to this thread TAN TUI was originally a larger style created by high level masters combining their systems. A military variation was created which is the typical 10/12 roads tantui. Simple, easy to learn, useful.

Oh and Ascetic is NOT Aesthetic!! Although they do look good. Ascetic refers to them being practiced by Monks and hermits.

[bawang]

civilian practioners were caravan guards called cash runners. on the northern roads half return alive. it must be effective or they die.
asthetic martial arts must be effective. its common for bandits to kill entire temples and use it as a base.


im bring out proof, evidence, documents, all that sh1t. i win internet kung fu argument. i have defecate you.

[SPJ]

Does anybody know more about the idea/history of Tan Tui being a style onto itself?

there were northern invaders. they were tall and strong and on horse back. thus fortress or city walls were built to stop calvary.

since the northern tribes were also good at wrestling with long arms.

the weak and short arm Chinese had to do something about it.

the use of long legs to sweep or fight was invented to pre empt close contact and wrestling.

there were also weapons and shields developed to stop the horse or strike horse legs and shields against long and arched sabers northern tribes used.

--

[bawang]

spj you are a big dum dum. northern chinese are huge. just because taiwanese are short and weak doesnt mean real chinese brothers are weak.

[SPJ]

I merely pointed out tan tui was invented by a chinese general

and fight against northern tribes

[bawang]

you call your own chinese people short and weak when the chinese army used to use swords over 2 meter long and 1 inch thick.
minimum height of imperial guard is six feet tall. SIX FEET TALL DIDI U READ THAT

U HAVE NO HONOR U R NOT A REAL CHILESE IM ASHAME OF U TO CALL CHINES AND D OCHILSE MARTIAL TTSA OK? I NO LIKE YOU

WHEN R U GONA MAKE A REAL VIDEO ON UR UTUBE INSDTEAD OF STOPMOTION PICTURS OK

[SPJ]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE2Mzk3NTUy.html

watch this.