Air Dummy

[hpclub]

What are people's opinuions and throughts on performing the dummy form without the use of the dummy? What are the advantages? Do you perform it in a slightly different way because you don't have a solid object to hit. ie you dont have to move around a solid object.

My own personal opinions is that there can be alot gained from performing the air dummy. You could argue that it combines all the training needs from all 3 forms in terms of positioning, use of energy/power, stepping, shifting, encompases all hand and foot techniques. Ontop of that you have the beneft of it being application based.

Performing the air dummy can can properly use full extension of your techniques to release the energy.

Anyway I hope this is a useful thread.

Regards

[Buddha_Fist]

Training on the dummy gives points of reference to your actions and your positioning. It serves to some degree to train your level of output, the attributes supporting the actions. The problem is that this is limited to specific actions. So when you want to work on attributes in a broader range, you have to do this by other means.

Performing the dummy sequence in the air allows for balanced relaxed actions that can be fully extended. Kind of like shadow boxing, albeit less flexible, as it is following a pre-established sequence. Just another tool...

[Eric_H]

It also matters what type of dummy you are working against, static, rotating or reverberating.

I haven't found air dummy to be very useful, the reverberating dummy does a good job of giving energy back and the rotating dummy challenges the precision of footwork more.

Were i working with static a dummy only i could see the advantage to it though.

Best

[Yoshiyahu]

In my opinion if you practice the air dummy i would suggest doing it slow and soft as well as fast and hard. Practicing both ways can help you with muscle and mental memory and programming. Also while doing so slow in the air it allows you meditate on the moves you perform while performing the action. Now some will say it also allows for yin chi develop. I think practing the dummy in the air is akin to practing your punches in the air. You should have a wall bag or heavy bag to do your punches on but practicing in the air provides basic benefit.

Now some people only hit the dummy light or work around it. I personally believe the dummy was designed to conditioned your arms so you can take impact when someone crashes against your arms. So one should practice the dummy hard an bang the wood with force with the use of dit da jow and also practice the wooden evasively with less force to work on technique and accuracy!

IMHO i think the Air dummy is beneficial, Along with that I also believe once you have mastered the form of the dummy you should begin to freestyle on and off the dummy with wooden man techniques!

[RedJunkRebel]

I think the Hong Jong can be useful for those that don't have a dummy to practice. It can also help you visualize different possibilities for applications. I'd agree that practicing it can help muscle and mental memory and programming. I don't think it's ever too soon to begin practicing on either the mook jong or the hong jong.

[sihing]

Speaking about Air Dummy form, here's WSL doing just that, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSvmNIQkz_M , you can still see the ging in his actions

James

[Yoshiyahu]

Redjunk rebel that is very clear and concise. I must agree with you!

[LoneTiger108]

What are people's opinuions and throughts on performing the dummy form without the use of the dummy? What are the advantages? Do you perform it in a slightly different way because you don't have a solid object to hit. ie you dont have to move around a solid object.

In most, if not all lineages, the wooden man is taught as a form, or sequence of sets specifically designed for Wing Chun. Whether you practise the 108 or 116 I would think the Hong Jong is useful as a therapy, but that may be the only advantage. Remembering the sets is half the battle!

I personally wouldn't try to release full power in the air though, just as I wouldn't do that with my fist or legwork.

What really rocked my boat was when I realized that if the wooden man form can be practised in the air, then all the 'air' forms can be practised on the wooden man!

[Yoshiyahu]

So true and also think of using the bart cham dao as empty hand form where you hands become darting fingers in place of knives. Interesting!

In most, if not all lineages, the wooden man is taught as a form, or sequence of sets specifically designed for Wing Chun. Whether you practise the 108 or 116 I would think the Hong Jong is useful as a therapy, but that may be the only advantage. Remembering the sets is half the battle!

I personally wouldn't try to release full power in the air though, just as I wouldn't do that with my fist or legwork.

What really rocked my boat was when I realized that if the wooden man form can be practised in the air, then all the 'air' forms can be practised on the wooden man!

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . . What really rocked my boat was when I realized that if the wooden man form can be practised in the air, then all the 'air' forms can be practised on the wooden man!

Yip Man taught Hung Jong (air dummy), at first before he gave the plans to William Cheung's brother to have a dummy made.
http://web.archive.org/web/200607170...oodendummy.htm
btw,We do the empty hands forms on the dummy.

[bennyvt]

The air dummy is usefull in learning what you are actually doing when using the dummy. Due to the dummies limits certain moves are (while still using the same energy and mechanics) have to be altered. Easy example the jut sao and punch under the arm in the section thats starts with the three pak sao's. This punch would be done in a fight on top. But as the dummy arms don't move the punch is under the arm. The punch is low to teach elbow control and other things. The distances on the steps are different. The only reason you stop when doing the dummy is your arms contact the dummy. Full steps occur when you use the same force but don't hit anything.
Lots of other ideas but these are the main ones.

[LoneTiger108]

So true and also think of using the bart cham dao as empty hand form where you hands become darting fingers in place of knives. Interesting!

Yeah! Don't get me started on that one... this whole forum will start having a pop at me again for previously suggesting that SLT itself can be practised with the blades!

Yip Man taught Hung Jong (air dummy), at first before he gave the plans to William Cheung's brother to have a dummy made.
http://web.archive.org/web/200607170...oodendummy.htm
btw,We do the empty hands forms on the dummy.

I had heard stories about that, but wasn't it Koo Sang that was contracted by the Ip Family to produce their wooden men?

Due to the dummies limits certain moves are (while still using the same energy and mechanics) have to be altered. Easy example the jut sao and punch under the arm in the section thats starts with the three pak sao's. This punch would be done in a fight on top.

The wooden man is limited only by the mind of the practitioner. Your example here of a practical indifference is weak imho, especially since you're adviocating practising something that can't be used as its practised!?

FWIW EVERY move on the wooden man is in the right place and can be used in the same way against a human being. Unless you haven't been taught the form well??! Or your foundation is weak.

[hpclub]

The air dummy is usefull in learning what you are actually doing when using the dummy. Due to the dummies limits certain moves are (while still using the same energy and mechanics) have to be altered. Easy example the jut sao and punch under the arm in the section thats starts with the three pak sao's. This punch would be done in a fight on top. But as the dummy arms don't move the punch is under the arm. The punch is low to teach elbow control and other things. The distances on the steps are different. The only reason you stop when doing the dummy is your arms contact the dummy. Full steps occur when you use the same force but don't hit anything.
Lots of other ideas but these are the main ones.

Thanks for the contribution. I would, however, suggest that this is circumstantial. For example of your opponant was much taller than you then you may feel more comfortable punching lower. Vice versa if youare much taller than your opponant then it would be impracticle to punch low using this technique. For the sake of practixing the air dummy I would simply punch at a natural level were my punches finish as in Sil Lim Tao which is around shoulder level.

Neil

[hpclub]

The distances on the steps are different. The only reason you stop when doing the dummy is your arms contact the dummy. Full steps occur when you use the same force but don't hit anything.
Lots of other ideas but these are the main ones.

Can you eleborate on this? Also would you still use a circular step as if there was a wooden leg present or not?

[bennyvt]

why would you bring an arm down and into your other side if you were going to punch under it. You would just punch. The punch should be done over the top as we don't punch under our own hands. To do the jut and punch under would not only be using the jut in a redundant manner you would be stopping your own punch. The point being that when done on an opponent his arm would move (while the dummy arms do not). The punch is done low to teach proper elbow usage and not lifting the elbow as you lose control. But if you do it properly on the dummy it transfers onto an opponent if you think about the way the move feels as opposed to the shape or position in space on the dummy. Gledhill tends to use the idea of all moves are the punch, in this circumstance nearly all the jum sao's can be thought of as strikes. While sometimes they are blocks. Each move on the dummy can be broken down into just a single arm movement, dual arm movement, just footwork and all combinations of that.
When doing the air dummy if you extend the moves to how you would if the arms were not imobile you will see what I mean. Just stand there and do a jut sao, now look were your elbow is. Normally this would end up around your ziphoid process (little bone below your sternum). Now put your other hand were it would normally be and do both of them while punching under. You will probably be blocking your own punch with your jut sao.