Styles/Sparring

[MightyB]

I find myself wondering if we'd lose the different styles if everyone really trained fighting because a lot of what traditionalists do isn't that smart from a fighting perspective.

Things like the traditional stance IMO - it'd go away because you can't give away your leg and you definitely can't extend an arm, you can't leave your head open, you have to hunch your shoulders in defense... in short, the traditional stance isn't very good at all for fighting. This guy explains it better than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qguQfn0QtBs

Anyway - I thought it'd be fun to hypothesize on what would happen to TCMA if everyone engaged in regular fight training.

So, how do you think TCMA would "evolve" if fighting (and regularly testing those concepts in competition and combat) became the true focus of Martial Arts?

[SPJ]

In Ba Ji

we were trained with horse stance, half horse stance etc

when in fight

the stance is some where in between, neither horse or half horse

etc

[MightyB]

Another thought though...

If we had the time to practice, like the theoretical masters... would we need to change? I guess what I'm trying to get at- are the styles a result of being extremely good at fighting?

I had a friend who went to China during the early 90's for some training. This was before China became the China we know now with the bright lights and big cities and the young hip urban attitude with lots and lots of stuff to do. He said that in between practice sessions - he was beyond bored. So imagine being in China as a kung fu practitioner when your work / business chores are done for the day and there's still a lot of day light left. What do you do? You practice kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

Another thought though...

If we had the time to practice, like the theoretical masters... would we need to change? I guess what I'm trying to get at- are the styles a result of being extremely good at fighting?

I had a friend who went to China during the early 90's for some training. This was before China became the China we know now with the bright lights and big cities and the young hip urban attitude with lots and lots of stuff to do. He said that in between practice sessions - he was beyond bored. So imagine being in China as a kung fu practitioner when your work / business chores are done for the day and there's still a lot of day light left. What do you do? You practice kung fu.

Practice is just that. It's enjoyable too.
Time is a provision to be made these days.
I make time to train and I take time to train.

One things for sure, whatever you devote your energies to, you will get good at.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

What he is doing is similiar to the peek-a-boo defense found in boxing.

Regarding traditional stances, I train them for conditioning and transitioning. Horse stance, bow and lunge stance, iron horse, leopard, ect. ect. are mostly not stances to fight out of, but more for transition. Conditioning was another main reason for low deep stances as is the Southern Kung Fu flavor.

Fighting out of these is not too smart, although I have seen some guys pull it off to an extent. Something has to constantly change and evolve to be perficient and fighting is no different. Like Ronin said, the element of suprise can be a good weapon.

[bawang]

northern kung fu has 5 or 6 fighting stances and theyre not horse stance bow stance cat stance

[brothernumber9]

That guy stole Ernie Moore Jr's squirrel defense style.

But back to the point. I get where MightyB is going. a lot of stylistics are lost or severely dminished when sparring or fighting. However I have seen some schools that fight just like they practice, unotrhodox stances and all. One in particular is Sifu Henry Poo Yee's jook lum students. They keep thier framework and fight stylistically just like thier hand sets. Some would argue that a number of wing chun schools also do the same, at least as long as they can protect center.

[Lucas]

chinese styles would pay much more attention to grappling.

[David Jamieson]

I find myself wondering if we'd lose the different styles if everyone really trained fighting because a lot of what traditionalists do isn't that smart from a fighting perspective.

Things like the traditional stance IMO - it'd go away because you can't give away your leg and you definitely can't extend an arm, you can't leave your head open, you have to hunch your shoulders in defense... in short, the traditional stance isn't very good at all for fighting. This guy explains it better than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qguQfn0QtBs

Anyway - I thought it'd be fun to hypothesize on what would happen to TCMA if everyone engaged in regular fight training.

So, how do you think TCMA would "evolve" if fighting (and regularly testing those concepts in competition and combat) became the true focus of Martial Arts?

what traditional stance are you talking about? that dude does a couple of poses. They aren't stances lol.

I love it when guys who don't do tcma try to explain it as wrong. awesome.

Anyway, that guy seems to be going on about the rodney king material on the sbg dvds...except he's doing it wrong. LOL He has no waist movement, low mobility and he's partially killing his field of view especially in regards to overhands.

so, take that for what it's worth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find myself wondering if we'd lose the different styles if everyone really trained fighting because a lot of what traditionalists do isn't that smart from a fighting perspective.

Nope and this is why:
Difference is good, when you bring something different and unique to the table, you have an advantage.
Southpaws know this, unorthodox fighters know this, BJJ showed us this in the 90's.

[Yum Cha]

Nope and this is why:
Difference is good, when you bring something different and unique to the table, you have an advantage.
Southpaws know this, unorthodox fighters know this, BJJ showed us this in the 90's.

oh yea. Its like an arms race, everybody is always looking for the next big thing.

Also, stance is just a beginners perspective on footwork. You stand still, sure. Then you do moving, a,b,c,d, etc. Then you do dirlls, then you learn to do it fluidly by applying it. Unless someone gives you a pass to drop back into 'what comes natural' so you can work your "hand" magic.

Footwork is twice as hard as hand work, IMHO. And ringcraft is a big part of that too.

To my mind, with 'perfect' footwork, you could beat GSP with a toothpick covered in cotton. (ok, maybe steel wool).

Look what footwork did for Ali.

[MightyB]

I wonder if we just started beating the h3ll out of each other but forced ourselves to stay within the flavor of "system" what that would do in the long term.

so for me a mantis guy - try to stay within the 3 essentials for style and technique and just find someone who's willing to do the same but within their style. Sure we'd look like 2 monkeys trying to frock a football at first, but it'd probably eventually work itself out. The trick would be to try to develop proficiency without relying on san shou / san da technique that's not part of mantis.

Hypothesizing of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wonder if we just started beating the h3ll out of each other but forced ourselves to stay within the flavor of "system" what that would do in the long term.

so for me a mantis guy - try to stay within the 3 essentials for style and technique and just find someone who's willing to do the same but within their style. Sure we'd look like 2 monkeys trying to frock a football at first, but it'd probably eventually work itself out. The trick would be to try to develop proficiency without relying on san shou / san da technique that's not part of mantis.

Hypothesizing of course.

What is the main characteristic of your style?
As long as you stay within that, you are doing "mantis".
The mantis of today, that deals with MMA, BJJ and so forth is not and can't be the Mantis of yesterday that didn't have those systems to deal with.

[Yum Cha]

I wonder if we just started beating the h3ll out of each other but forced ourselves to stay within the flavor of "system" what that would do in the long term.

so for me a mantis guy - try to stay within the 3 essentials for style and technique and just find someone who's willing to do the same but within their style. Sure we'd look like 2 monkeys trying to frock a football at first, but it'd probably eventually work itself out. The trick would be to try to develop proficiency without relying on san shou / san da technique that's not part of mantis.

Hypothesizing of course.

Yea, sound's about right. You dance around all awkward, then you figure it out, just like anything else. Once you make it work a couple of time, you get a hint, you work it. For some reason, people just think footwork is 'different'.

[TenTigers]

Also, stance is just a beginners perspective on footwork. You stand still, sure. Then you do moving, a,b,c,d, etc. Then you do dirlls, then you learn to do it fluidly by applying it. Unless someone gives you a pass to drop back into 'what comes natural' so you can work your "hand" magic.

Footwork is twice as hard as hand work, IMHO. And ringcraft is a big part of that too.

it seems to me that people simply don't understand stance. If you are posing, then you deserve what you get. Posing, Extending the hands, standing sideways or 45 at close range will get you killed quickly.