(. Y .)
I don't like this style of on-guard hand positioning because it makes it difficult to initiate an attack. These are great pics for what I have as a pet peeve. Maybe you guys are ok with it, I'm not. It's my opinion. Every jab is by default telegraphed when you hold your hands in this type of forward guard. Plus - they know your bridge. It's easy to see.Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Last edited by MightyB; 12-01-2010 at 01:50 PM.
Cha Wang
uh, Yea, about right.
Why is it we have to actually re-state and reiterate the obvious so often?
Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
Established 1989, Glebe Australia
Registered User
If you always initiate with a low kick or foot sweep (distraction) before moving in with your punch, the position of your hands won't be that important. The forward guard can draw your opponent's attention on your hands so he may not pay enough attention on your kick/sweep. Sometime telegraphing is a good thing.
实者虚之虚者实之(Shi Zhe Xu Zhi Xu Zhe Shi Zhi) - The real is fake and the fake is real.
This is why the fighting is so much fun. I can't understand why people are not crazy about the combat training.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-01-2010 at 02:27 PM.
Registered User
screw the telegraphed jabs, hands that low get your bell rung, theres a reason every on guard position where full contact strikes are allowed to the head look the same, boxing, sanda, thai boxing, etc because protecting the head is the main role of any on guard stance
Registered User
if you always leave with a low kick and have your hands low you will get knocked the f&ck out mor often than not
(. Y .)
Nobody's talking about the individual pose/stances like "Rooster takes the golden shower" or "white ape punches the starfish" or "lonesome faery sucks crockidile". It t'aint that at all that's my concern. You throw a hard cross or reverse punch, you should end in a hill climber / bow and arrow stance for a split second. Pretty much everyone knows that. It's the basic on-guard or ready stance that some traditionalists use that I'm not a fan of. You know, the position you take when the guy screams "ready" just before you fight. The Cantonese guys always sound like they're saying "e-bay" when they want you to start.
(. Y .)
right on brother, right on. I like your "bell ringing" post too. It's such an obvious problem, yet by the responses I just don't get it.
My thought is Why would anyone drill such a rediculous on-guard stance constantly in their "applications" drills or sparring when it's obvious that it's not a good ready stance for really getting it in and mixing it up?
But the ready stance is just one of my pet-peeves. The other is I don't think TCMA really addresses or teaches attack properly.
It goes back to the rediculous on-guard stance. That stance is great for the "if he does this, then you do this" approach to teaching. It's fine for that... but that style of teaching is very counter productive to martial development. IMO, here's why: when you do that, you create a psychology of bad things happen if you attack. Maybe that's not a bad thing, but for a competitive martial artist, it's a terrible handicap. You don't learn how to open an oppenent through attacks, you don't learn ringmanship, you don't learn combinations, there's a lot that you miss out on and then you are left to make it up... often times when you're in the middle of things. And then you are psychologicaly are scared because in the back of your mind you're thinking that if you throw this kick or punch, bad things are going to happen to you. And then you really have a problem.
Registered User
In combat, punch is not the only thing that you have to worry about. The "foot sweep" is the saftest initial attack in all MA systems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwS0aPedoEo
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 12-01-2010 at 03:15 PM.
Cha Wang
Hey "B" sorry, not on the same page, really addressing another issue.
Starting stance has troubled me a long time too. So my answer was to give it up.
I try to alternate presenting right and left, arm and leg, moving head. Most fighters key off of recognising a certain position. The lateral movement also keeps me mobile so there is less momentum to overcome to strike, and less instinct to jump on the 'railroad tracks'. I don't present a certain position, other than the hands extended.
I also only move seriously when in range. Outside of range, relax, conserve, work the head space and setup.
Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
Established 1989, Glebe Australia
Registered User
MB
I'll bite. My school is 'traditional' Tanglang and I'm pretty sure we use the standard guard position you don't like. You can see it in our 'chuji sanda' clips, where it's mostly open hand. However, the guard changes to fit the circumstance and is drawn in when we are largely punching full contact to the head and of course when not fighting against ourselves. In the case of sparring - using gloves changes things, for one, you can take shots on the glove, something you can't (and probably shouldn't) really do effectively without gloves. Anyone who fights using boxing gloves knows that they can not be held up in an extended guard for long and it goes without saying that the guard should be tightened. Open/extended guard is useful for catching, grappling and and takedowns. It has it's problems against certain opponents and when you are fighting against a predominantly head hunting striker such as a boxer, obviously best to bring the guard in tighter and of course withdraw/protect the chin. The chin was not a primary target traditionally, hence the general lack of fear of holding the head upright and confident use of extended guard as a controlling mechanism. On the other hand, extended guard and 'head on a beanpole' can be an intentional (but risky) way to entice certain attacks from the opponent.
The extended guard is not the only guard, it is only a snapshot of a guard that in actuality should shift to fit the purpose. The guard should not remain static and should not remain either permanently long or short. Ideally, at least one hand should at all times be within range to the guard the neck and head. Outside of range the guard can be wherever it likes or gone completely. In closing distance the guard should retract. On top of that, once fundamentals are mastered each fighter must develop their own unique guard. If you don't own it you can't use it.
I don't know about teaching this way being counter productive to martial development because if you are regularly fighting against boxers, kickboxers etc or fighting in your job or on the street, you will have to adapt or you will suffer the consequences. In other words if it doesn't work it gets quickly exposed and cannot be falsely imposed. 'Development' via exclusive intra-style fighting is always hampered. Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't maintain the characteristics of your system, if they are worthwhile. If not, better to abandon your style and take up something better.
The guard position and waiting method that I gather you are referring to is a part of the basic fighting methodology/combat regulations of Tanglang. No doubt you would have already been taught this but the idea is that in a self defence, or for want of a better term 'street fighting' situation, unless you are initiating the attack (in which case there is really no need for a guard because you are already smashing them) you wait for your opponent to move first. This idea has been widely misunderstood because the second part is often ignored - when they do move you must beat them to the punch (to be specific - 'You attack, I simultaneously avoid and intercept') and if they do not move you definitely attack first, unless you want to avoid conflict. You should not just sit and wait, unless of course you choose to, which you may do if you are a counterfighter or if you are outnumbered, injured, gassed, thinking, looking for exits, weapons etc. In this case (i.e the case of a break in fighting) a guard is warranted, as may be a little 'sitting and waiting'.
In the ring, the extended guard and entrapment mentality is generally counterproductive (though not generally as big an issue in sanda). Besides which you will be penalised for inactivity. In a self defence/fighting situation it can be very useful if it has been trained effectively. Of course it can be a disadvantage against certain opponents.
BT
Last edited by B.Tunks; 12-01-2010 at 08:09 PM.
Moo Moo
if your style is moving the steps all the time, then most of the time, you will be 90/10. when you land your attack, you will be 50/50.
in tong bei and many other styles, we focus on 3 tips aligned, the tip of your lead leg, the tip of your lead hand and your nose. san jian xiang zhao 三尖相照
personally, no particular stance for me.
1. in ba ji, we see the opponent's move, we hit his move. or counterattack against his move at the same time. jian zhao da zhao 见招打招
2. in tai chi, we see the opponent's move, we neutralize his move. jian zhao hua/chai zhao 见招化/拆招.
so the stance would be dependent on the opponent's move.
Registered User
sure when you dont actually allow full contact continues strikes to the face
care to point to any MMA, Sanda, thai boxing, or hell even K1 (where karate gys compete) when full contact head shots are allowed and where the foot sweep is the first line of attack?
Registered User
the two points are linked and a result of not using correct protection equipment and sparring wth enough intensity (because of the lack of protective equipment)
My thought is Why would anyone drill such a rediculous on-guard stance constantly in their "applications" drills or sparring when it's obvious that it's not a good ready stance for really getting it in and mixing it up?
But the ready stance is just one of my pet-peeves. The other is I don't think TCMA really addresses or teaches attack properly.
It goes back to the rediculous on-guard stance. That stance is great for the "if he does this, then you do this" approach to teaching. It's fine for that... but that style of teaching is very counter productive to martial development. IMO, here's why: when you do that, you create a psychology of bad things happen if you attack. Maybe that's not a bad thing, but for a competitive martial artist, it's a terrible handicap. You don't learn how to open an oppenent through attacks, you don't learn ringmanship, you don't learn combinations, there's a lot that you miss out on and then you are left to make it up... often times when you're in the middle of things. And then you are psychologicaly are scared because in the back of your mind you're thinking that if you throw this kick or punch, bad things are going to happen to you. And then you really have a problem.
Notice what happened to the karate on guard position when they allowed boxing gloves and full contact strikes to the head in there competitions? boxers started knocking them out and as a result their guard position changed and it became kick boxing (and the number of foot sweeps went way down
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Two things:
1) the fist basic counter to any low line kick is to step in and punch the face, doing a low line attack with hands down will get you punched in the face.
2) Low line hands in karate and aikido ( the two examples shown) are used to entice an attack and NOT used to attack from.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Ninja Vanish!!
I think this has already been said, but when I started in Karate and doing mostly point tournaments I noticed a lot of Karate guys keeping the same stance. Power hand back and chambered at the ribcage, other hand high and open for guard, fighting out of front or cat stance. The reason for this was the predominant use of the reverse punch. A solid reverse punch to the body scored, so it made sense to fight like this in those sort of competitions.
When I started Kung Fu one of my instructors had also boxed so he would jab the hell out of you for being in that kind of stance, so I learned quick it was not good for any full contact striking with head shots. This is not to down Karate but I do down Karate or any other style that trains predominately for point competitions because that is the kind of bad habits you are going to learn and how you will fight. Which will get you killed against someone with full contact experience.
"The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato
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