ignorant people frown on forms

[RenDaHai]

Also

If we take a single move from an old form, it has hundreds of applications.

However if we only train the move in application we will only train one or two of these applications.

By training the movement in form we gradually start to realise the 'PRINCIPLE OF MOVEMENT' we start to learn the formula behind the technique. Once we have this we can dispose of form entirely and rely on the principles of kung fu to fight with.

If you only ever train the specific applications of moves it is harder to learn these underlying principles.

By training form you can unlock these principles and move from form to formlessness in combat. However going straight to formlessness is not so easy.

NOt saying form can be trained alon and make you a good fighter, but it does help as part of your training and i think it should be trained along with sparring and striking and all the rest.

[bawang]

sparring doesnt give u the magical feeling form does. americans train forms because it makes them feel good about themselves. thats why so many kung fu people do forms so bad but theyre oblivious to it. theyre lost in the magical moment rofl

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeCyQE-lyw

down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus

[SPJ]

Forms are a list.

Forms are like a menu in a restaurant.

We only order some items to have a meal. We do not eat everything on the menu.

Similarly, we only drill and spar with some single moves in each class or session.

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeCyQE-lyw

down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus

bawang, that was truly inspirational; just one thing tho - did your mom loose a lot of weight recently? because on stage w the microphone, she looks a lot smaller than in the pic that you have of her in your sig; just wondering if she was ok...

[EarthDragon]

I cant belevie we are still having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

everything has its purpose when learning MA. One of these is forms. ORIGINALLY forms where a way to remember the movements taught to you by your illiterate shifu since most could not read or write.
some of these forms were also in a poem or song to help rememeber.

Its the dumb ass American people that dont understand thier purpose and say things like
1. you cant fight with a form
2. forms are not good training tools.
3. forms cant make you learn MMA
4. forms is a silly way to learn kung fu
5. shifu's who teach forms dotn know how to fight
6. They have no place in modern times

I am sooo tired of this BS. understand that forms are the notebook of knowledge in a sequence to rememeber the specific movements which BTW have applications. When you learn the applications you learn to defend yourself. and thus learn kung fu.

It may be true that some people use them in the wrong way but americans can abuse anything in my opionon. not just forms. we abuse food for God's sake!

Soco you said the 5 schools you vistied in SC sucked. well the same goes for your pizzeria's I've been to SC...... does that mean that every pizzeria is the same? NO find on you like and you will be happy, but dont bash pizza as a whole.
I teach 5 forms and its applications and our forms are from poems. Do they help you to fight? in some ways yes
1. balance
2. agility adn flexability
3. endurance.
4. muslce memory and strength
5. strengthening your foundation
5. fluidity of movement
6. power generation and placement
do these help when it comes time to fight? YES.... are forms and effecitve tool absolutley..... shoudl they be taught without application? NO. Do SOME teachers that dont know how to apply thier knowledge use them as sheilds? YES can we ever end this same dead horse conversation??????????????????????? maybe

[PalmStriker]

Forms are all about training for power.

[PalmStriker]

sparring doesnt give u the magical feeling form does. americans train forms because it makes them feel good about themselves. thats why so many kung fu people do forms so bad but theyre oblivious to it. theyre lost in the magical moment rofl

Yes, "Chi Addicts".

[PalmStriker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeCyQE-lyw

down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus

Perfection! Real Kungfu is mind over matter as none of us are the vehicles(bodies) we are driving.

[Hardwork108]

I cant belevie we are still having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

everything has its purpose when learning MA. One of these is forms. ORIGINALLY forms where a way to remember the movements taught to you by your illiterate shifu since most could not read or write.
some of these forms were also in a poem or song to help rememeber.

Its the dumb ass American people that dont understand thier purpose and say things like
1. you cant fight with a form
2. forms are not good training tools.
3. forms cant make you learn MMA
4. forms is a silly way to learn kung fu
5. shifu's who teach forms dotn know how to fight
6. They have no place in modern times

I am sooo tired of this BS. understand that forms are the notebook of knowledge in a sequence to rememeber the specific movements which BTW have applications. When you learn the applications you learn to defend yourself. and thus learn kung fu.

It may be true that some people use them in the wrong way but americans can abuse anything in my opionon. not just forms. we abuse food for God's sake!

Soco you said the 5 schools you vistied in SC sucked. well the same goes for your pizzeria's I've been to SC...... does that mean that every pizzeria is the same? NO find on you like and you will be happy, but dont bash pizza as a whole.
I teach 5 forms and its applications and our forms are from poems. Do they help you to fight? in some ways yes
1. balance
2. agility adn flexability
3. endurance.
4. muslce memory and strength
5. strengthening your foundation
5. fluidity of movement
6. power generation and placement
do these help when it comes time to fight? YES.... are forms and effecitve tool absolutley..... shoudl they be taught without application? NO. Do SOME teachers that dont know how to apply thier knowledge use them as sheilds? YES can we ever end this same dead horse conversation??????????????????????? maybe

Great post Earthdragon. The logic behind forms training was well put and there is no excuse for not understanding what you wrote.

However, I have a feeling that the none-TCMA, MMA people, who insist on cluelessly badmouthing traditional kung fu methodlogies, will not have made heads or tales out of it, but then logical thinking and deduction was never their forte.

Thanks again.

[EarthDragon]

I have a feeling that the none-TCMA, MMA people, who insist on cluelessly badmouthing traditional kung fu methodlogies, will not have made heads or tales out of it, but then logical thinking and deduction was never their forte

I disagree, I think I spelled it out quite clearly and all can understand wht forms are for,
lets not hate on MMA people as they shpould not hate on us.

To say form training is not a part of fighting is just as ignorant as saying that jumping rope, shadow boxing, slipping drills, and footwork training are not part of fighting when boxing.

I know some football players who take ballet lessons....... lets use what ever we need to improve what ever it is that needs improving.

I DO NOT agree that forms should be the main or only training tool used to teach students. Teachers that do this are either stalling or do not know how to translate thier skillls into a fighting avenues correctly.
And from the feedback I hear alot fo schools are doing this, so my opinion is dont join those schools and if you find yourself in one enroll into a differnt one. Just dont bash them either they make it easier for schools like mine to get their students..

I was invited to perfrom a jointlocking seminar at a school located in the mall out by me, their students couldnt fight to save their lives, they were skiny, ****ey uncordinated and looked more like the kids from Glee than MA's but you know what? the loved what they d, loved and respected thier teacher and appreciated what I taught them and thats all that matters to them... it seems only the ppl who are looking for competition fighting are ****ed that these schools exist

[darkie1973]

EarthDragon,..... Hardwork,.... ditto.

[darkie1973]

The chinese are an artful and poetic culture. They use poetry in cook books, medical text,.... the **** Art of War by Sun Tzu is freaking poem! You wanna tell all those Japanese business men that have been using it for years to best our auto industry internationally that it doesn't work?! It's no different than using a rhyme to remember your history lesson in the 4th grade,..... grow up people.

[YouKnowWho]

Well, I think forms are very much for training.

Let me use an example to show my point. Assume a form contain the following sentences, "This is a book, I love you to death. You owe me some money." Please notice that there is no logic connection between "book" and "I", "death" and "You". You can train your form as drills:

- "This is a book" 100 times,
- "I love you to death" 100 times,
- "You owe me some money" 100 times,

which is the same as to train your whole form 100 times. The day that you have broken your form into drills, the day that form will have no training value for you.

Some forms were designed in such a way that's easy to teach to the beginners (For example to hold your hands on your waist when you kick). If you train your form just like the way that you have learned from your teacher when you are 80 years old, you may just treat yourself as beginner all your life and refuse to move beyond.

I prefer to create my own drills instead of getting it from the forms. The reason is simple. Good designed forms are hard to find. Which form can give you a true integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw? Which form can give you drills such as:

- roundhouse kick, side kick, under hook, knee strike, outer hook?
- leg seize, reverse leg seize, foot sweep, turn around leg block, outer twist?
- ...

The answer is "None of those TCMA forms can provide you such combo drills" and you just have to create those drills yourself. The day that you start to create your own drills, the value of form is no longer important to you.

[mooyingmantis]

Look I realize how YOU teach is one thing. But what you are doing is NOT what the masses are doing. I can't count how many times you and Earthdragon and Mooying and the like keep saying, "Y'all need to see more kung fu schools." No, YOU need to see more kung fu schools. I myself have been in 5 different ones.

Well, I guess maybe I am lucky to be in an area that doesn't have sh1tty kung fu schools. So sad for you!

Fortunately guys like John Ervin, Gino Belfiore, Tony Yang and his students, Mike Biggie and myself try to keep it real in the Cleveland/Akron/Canton area. Funny thing is that though we all teach practical fighting, we all use forms as one method of doing it.
BTW Nick Scrima who promotes several tourneys in the US is also originally from the NE Ohio (Parma) area.