ignorant people frown on forms

[tiaji1983]

I personally train TCMA. I practice forms. Do I think forms can teach you to fight, yes. Do I believe you can learn to fight without forms, yes. If you say forms are obsolete, and you can gain the same benefits without forms, maybe. But would it be easier or more practical, I dont think so for everything.

An example would be going low in forms. Before I trianed TCMA I always used high stances. JUST by doing my forms as low as i can, I gained flexibility, stability, muscle strength, balance, stamina and quickness and numbleness with my footwork. Plus I can easily take a lower position than an opponent, and move in that position without being warn out quickly. To gain all that without practicing forms, I guess I could do lunges, run, jump, weights, stand on horse stance for hours, and stuff like that, but I was able to gain that with forms without the monotony of doing the same thing over and over as I practice many different forms to go though.

I also practice forms as shadowboxing imagining multiple opponents. How did this help? it helps you discover applciations hidden within the forms and how to use them, and honestly with this practice, after time they just come out. Sometimes I will change soemthing in the form to experiment with applications, and always use different scenarios. Can you do this without forms? Yes. Forms is just the way I prefer, because then I dont have to do it individually since Im already practicing my forms, so its a time saver. The applications do come out by themselves, but I also am now practicing applications, and supplimenting with Push Hands for sensitivity, and the Snake and Crane games for getting through the opponents defenses. I also practice Chinna reversals and a little ground stuff to supplement the training.

It also can be broke down and put into drills, which I agree with, and then you could say you no longer need forms, but my teacher, who been practicing TCMA since the 60s said he still learns things from disecting his forms. SO if thats the case, your abandoning possibilities by stopping and just practicing drills. Is drills good to practice in addition to forms, yes. Will it make you a better fighter? possibly. Is that the extent of the usefullness of forms? no... I will always practice forms until I die, because of health benefits, the time reduction because of the lack of need of other trianing, always training applications, and the fact theres ALWAYS more to learn.

In addition I do supplement my training now with cardio, as in doing forms fast, fajing training, Qigong, weights, as in medicine balls, and resistence training, wooden dummies and heavy bags, and jogging, as I learned that just forms alone may not always be enough, but they are not useless tools or just menus of techniques. That is a limited view of the whole of forms.

Forms also do help with maintaining health and flexibility into old age, prevent arthritis and other such chronic ailments, increase lung capacity, help relieve stress, strengthen the body, etc. You can get these benefits with other exercises, but why do those other exercises if your already practicing forms?

This whole argument is relative to the speakers point of view. I am defending my point of view, it is not a wrong point of view, just different than others. Thier point of view is not wrong niether, just please try to see the whole picture. If its not relevent to your training thats fine, but it is relevent and it is not obsolete just because it is not understood.

[taai gihk yahn]

My post was a general description of what I have come across here in this forum, and was not a shot at you.

I did not construe it as such, I was simply speaking to your comments in general as well

However IMHO, it is not a good idea to presume that one can explain all TCMA techniques if one has not studied all TCMA to an advanced level.
Just saying...

again, you are apprently rejecting the hypothetical by essentially saying that unless one has seen everything that there is to see, one cannot make a definitive statement about anything; I would disagree - I think that once one has seen a reasonable cross section and experienced enough data points, one can make a reasonably reliable statement about a given system without having experienced that system in its entirety; this is essentially what happens when one samples a cross section of the population to determine a general trend; of course, one can always get more specific, but at some point one starts to see clear trends that can be used not only descriptively, but predictively with reasonable accuracy;

I personally do not claim to have experienced every technique from every system, let alone on an advanced level; but neither have you - in fact, you base your opinions of TCMA on experience of two arts on a rudimentary to intermediate level, with the added aspect of having been on the receiving end of certain types of "advanced" power generation; of course, you are probably comparing these systems to your experiences in other non-TCMA arts that didn't provide you with the same level of experience, and so you are drawing your conclusion based on a comparative analysis; similarly, many people here have had experience in both TCMA and non-TCMA, and instead of coming out unequivocally in support of the former, they have found it to be lacking; your argument is that they must have either not been exposed to "authentic" TCMA or if they were, they didn't understand it / study it deeply enough / were kept in the dark by their teachers, because otherwise if it were an authentic TCMA that they had explored fully, they could not possibly have reached the conclusions that they reached; as such, whenever someone points out a perceived shortcoming of TCMA, you hasten to caution them not to draw general conclusions about all TCMA; and up to a point, you are correct; however, when a large number of people start finding TCMA to be lacking in certain regards, sooner or later this will include practitioners of "authentic" quality systems, who, despite this, will still discern short-comings, despite the fact that their systems may be intrinsically valid; and despite your admonition against pairing authentic TCMA w an "irrelevant" system that does not adhere to TCMA principles, in fact this may be just what a given TCMA needs in order to continue to evolve - ultimately, the idea of TCMA principles i relative and conditional - the boundaries are set because people set them, not because of any absolute truth about them; and of course, here is where you and I differ, as I see everything as relative and nothing as absolute (of course, I am in good company, given that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu say pretty much the same thing); thus, your characterizing something as an irrelevant art may not be because that art doesn't conform to TCMA principles, it may be that you yourself cannot appreciate that in fact there is a valid relationship between say, bok mei and MT, or Long Fist and BJJ, or CLF and Boxing; so before you deride others on their own supposed lack of insight, perhaps it is your own subjective bias that requires you to adhere to a preconception about how things are supposed to work;
all things evolve and change; it is the only constant; one cannot cling to the promises of the past, one must deal with what is directly in front of one; there are many paths to the top of the mountain, and sometimes those paths cross in unexpected ways; you have chosen yours, and it is one that is at base uncritical of and fully trusting in what you have discerned to be the authentic TCMA principles inherent to what you characterize as a valid art; and certainly many here agree with you; but many do not, and to continue to call their qualifications to do so in a valid way is at best disingenuous;

[taai gihk yahn]

I personally train TCMA. I practice forms. Do I think forms can teach you to fight, yes. Do I believe you can learn to fight without forms, yes. If you say forms are obsolete, and you can gain the same benefits without forms, maybe. But would it be easier or more practical, I dont think so for everything.

your argument is a rather unclear here; first you say you can learn to fight both by practicing forms and then by not practicing them; you hedge your bets by trying to qualify it that maybe forms are obsolete, and end with a vague statement about what may or may not be practical

An example would be going low in forms. Before I trianed TCMA I always used high stances. JUST by doing my forms as low as i can, I gained flexibility, stability, muscle strength, balance, stamina and quickness and numbleness with my footwork. Plus I can easily take a lower position than an opponent, and move in that position without being warn out quickly. To gain all that without practicing forms, I guess I could do lunges, run, jump, weights, stand on horse stance for hours, and stuff like that, but I was able to gain that with forms without the monotony of doing the same thing over and over as I practice many different forms to go though. .

so you basically admit that it was your personal perception of non-forms training as monotonous that causes you to choose forms training over more "mundane" repetative execises that may in fact allow you to more effectively and efficiently target the areas you need to work on; meaning that for you, you need to be entertained enough to practice something, the end results are not the only consideration, in fact you are willing to possibly gain less at the end as long as you are not bored on the way; which is fine, no judegement about that, but that's the long and short of it;

I also practice forms as shadowboxing imagining multiple opponents. .

unless you are moving spontaneously without following a set routine, you are not shadow boxing;

How did this help? it helps you discover applciations hidden within the forms and how to use them, and honestly with this practice, after time they just come out. Sometimes I will change soemthing in the form to experiment with applications, and always use different scenarios. Can you do this without forms?.

yes you can; in fact, instead of "discovering" applications in forms that are based on your projection of what you think will work, why not just train the techniques you learn in a relatively live setting against a resisting opponent? like that you will discover what actually works as opposed to what you think might work;

Forms is just the way I prefer.

and that right there is the crux of your argument; and no one can argue against your personal preference, nor should they; however, this does not give you or anyone the ability to generalize about something beyond that;

It also can be broke down and put into drills, which I agree with, and then you could say you no longer need forms, but my teacher, who been practicing TCMA since the 60s said he still learns things from disecting his forms..

again, this is projection - unless he is actively going out and testing what he has discerned against resisting opponents who are not his students or training brothers, he has no way of knowing if his conjecture is valid;

SO if thats the case, your abandoning possibilities by stopping and just practicing drills. Is drills good to practice in addition to forms, yes. Will it make you a better fighter? possibly. Is that the extent of the usefullness of forms? no.

I hate to say this, but you really don't make much sense here, you are kind of all over the place - you offer a variety of opinions, but offer no basis other than your personal preference for why they should hold true; and that's fine, for you as an individual; but you have no basis to generalize your comments

no... I will always practice forms until I die, because of health benefits, the time reduction because of the lack of need of other trianing, always training applications, and the fact theres ALWAYS more to learn. In addition I do supplement my training now with cardio, as in doing forms fast, fajing training, Qigong, weights, as in medicine balls, and resistence training, wooden dummies and heavy bags, and jogging, as I learned that just forms alone may not always be enough, but they are not useless tools or just menus of techniques. That is a limited view of the whole of forms. .

again, you say one thing than you say the opposite: "forms alone may not be enough" - well then, you really don't know one way or the other...

Forms also do help with maintaining health and flexibility into old age, prevent arthritis and other such chronic ailments, increase lung capacity, help relieve stress, strengthen the body, etc. You can get these benefits with other exercises, but why do those other exercises if your already practicing forms?.

because there are other forms of exercise that can get you these benefits much more efficiently than TCMA forms - Feldenkreis, Piates, Alexander Technique, yoga, qigong, Ariga Gym, Laban - all modalties developed primarilly for health - how could a practice designed for martial use primarilly possibly hope to be more effective for health maintenance than a system designed primarilly for that purpose?

This whole argument is relative to the speakers point of view. I am defending my point of view, it is not a wrong point of view, just different than others. Thier point of view is not wrong niether, just please try to see the whole picture. If its not relevent to your training thats fine, but it is relevent and it is not obsolete just because it is not understood.

that's fine, but again, you make assertions that appear to be generalizations, when in fact you are stating, in a somewhat convoluted manner, your own personal rationale for why you do forms, which boils down to the fact that you like doing forms; which is fine; but that doesn't establish any sort of objective criteria for their utility as regards development of fighting skill as opposed to other methods;

[taai gihk yahn]

taai,


I love this statement and I know david J always says this as well.... if you like to do it then do it. if soaking your cup in icyhot before a fight makes you a better kicker then all the power to you borhter, whatever floats your boat right.....

I personally feel that when I practice forms my mind is sharper, my movements are more relaxed and fluid, my timing and hand eye corodination flow into equlibrium and my Yi is eminate.
This IMHO makes me a better more focused fighter and keeps me sharp.
Thats why I say what i say about forms they have thier place but obviouslly not to the extent of abuse and over functionality that some teaches have done with them.

and here is where so-called "objective" assessment may reach a limit, insofar as that when one is motivated to perform an activity, it impacts one's performance in a non-linear manner; so for example, although one may be able to objectively establish that a given series of context-specific drills may enhance one's performance as a fighter, there may be something about doing a form that lends a certain ineffable, non-quantifiable aspect to what one does; it's like, one can objectively argue that eating chocolate cake is a bad thing if one is aon a weight loss regimine, except that maybe having that one piece of cake once in a while one is able to stay on that regimine more effectively over the long term; similarly, if one is motivated personally to train harder all around because one aspect of one's training is doing forms, even though we might objectively demonstrate from a motor learning perspective that they are of not advantage and possible detrimental, at the same time if they build one's "fighting spirit", then there is a relative advantage to engaging in their practice - sort of like the hoppolite (sp?) warrior dances of ancient Greece: they certainly knew those movements weren't going to be what they used in actual fighting, yet doing it galvanized their fighting spirit; so in a way, if you are doing a form that you know connects you to your distant TCMA ancestors and if that fires you up, then it is now relevant to your overall training and fighting ability; of course, you may still get you asz kicked by some guy who simply ran up and down stadium steps all day with a log across his shoulders as his motivational practice, but hey, you live and learn...

[Hardwork108]

PART 1

I did not construe it as such, I was simply speaking to your comments in general as well

You did say,

well, if you believe that my opinion is based in idiotically and blindly following "science", that is certainly your purview;....

But if you say that you did not take it as a personal comment, then so be it.

again, you are apprently rejecting the hypothetical by essentially saying that unless one has seen everything that there is to see, one cannot make a definitive statement about anything; I would disagree -

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant, which is that unless one has seen everything that there is to see one cannot make a definitive statement about everything that there is to see.

I think that once one has seen a reasonable cross section and experienced enough data points, one can make a reasonably reliable statement about a given system without having experienced that system in its entirety;

Again, a "reasonable" (which in itself can be subjective) cross section is not everything.

this is essentially what happens when one samples a cross section of the population to determine a general trend; of course, one can always get more specific, but at some point one starts to see clear trends that can be used not only descriptively, but predictively with reasonable accuracy;

I would agree that in determining general trend statistics (even if they can be manipulated), this is a reasonable scientific approach, however when dealing with a methodology which is not taught truly in around 95% percent of the schools that claim to teach it, and when you consider the fact that a few schools that do teach it may or may not teach it fully to everyone, then this mindset can have failings.

I personally do not claim to have experienced every technique from every system, let alone on an advanced level; but neither have you - in fact, you base your opinions of TCMA on experience of two arts on a rudimentary to intermediate level, with the added aspect of having been on the receiving end of certain types of "advanced" power generation;

That is true.

of course, you are probably comparing these systems to your experiences in other non-TCMA arts that didn't provide you with the same level of experience, and so you are drawing your conclusion based on a comparative analysis;

That and the fact that no one here has shown any understanding of the SPM power generation as practiced in the Chow Gar school where I practiced, even when I had thrown plenty of hints that would draw out the knowledgable.

As far as Wing Chun is concerned then I can say that I did not come by anyone here who practices it in all the dimensions that I have seen, without going out into other often irrelevant systems.

similarly, many people here have had experience in both TCMA and non-TCMA, and instead of coming out unequivocally in support of the former, they have found it to be lacking;

That does not surprise me at all, seeing that over 95% of TCMA schools out there teach total crap. What surprises me that these people use their questionable TCMA experience and "understanding" to make blanket, not to mention clueless statements about "how bad"; "out of date"; "useless" certain TCMA methodologies are supposed to be.

your argument is that they must have either not been exposed to "authentic" TCMA or if they were, they didn't understand it / study it deeply enough / were kept in the dark by their teachers, because otherwise if it were an authentic TCMA that they had explored fully, they could not possibly have reached the conclusions that they reached;

And that is because many, if not all, have not studied authentic TCMA methodologies, but then what do you expect when over 95% of kung fu schools out there are McKwoons or at best a hybrid kwoons that teach "empty shell" version of TCMA forms and combine them with kickboxing style sparring?

as such, whenever someone points out a perceived shortcoming of TCMA, you hasten to caution them not to draw general conclusions about all TCMA; and up to a point, you are correct;

The situation is worse than that, because most of these people do not even understand the "TCMA" they are supposed to have studied, let alone "all TCMA".

[Hardwork108]

PART 2

however, when a large number of people start finding TCMA to be lacking in certain regards,

A large number of people will always come to that conclusion, because the overwhelming majority of TCMA practioners practice in poor to mediocre schools!

sooner or later this will include practitioners of "authentic" quality systems, who, despite this, will still discern short-comings, despite the fact that their systems may be intrinsically valid;

Well, every kung fu tagged kickboxer in this forum claims experience in "authentic" quality systems or schools. So the situation is not as simple as it may first appear.

Besides, in the very unlikely case that any of these essentially kickboxer characters had any valid authentic training for a good number of years, would that give them the right to generalize about all TCMAs? Of course not, and if they did, then it would be a good indication that they were clueless about their own core TCMA, as well, for having missed the scope of these systems.

and despite your admonition against pairing authentic TCMA w an "irrelevant" system that does not adhere to TCMA principles,

I have good reason for this opion.

in fact this may be just what a given TCMA needs in order to continue to evolve

Well, I am of the opinion that they already have done this. However, they have assimilated other methodologies into their given concepts and principles, rather than just turning their art into a mish mash of random MAs, which a given master may have found "useful".

IMHO, there is a reason for this approach and people should ask why and not assume that the past masters were not "intelligent" enough to just mix their arts as they come, without worrying about principles and concepts.

- ultimately, the idea of TCMA principles i relative and conditional - the boundaries are set because people set them,

Again, one must ask why masters with intimate knowledge of a given system or systems (knowledge even surpassing that of our resident forum "masters" lol) would set such boundaries.

The "why" of this is an interesting area of research. I mean after all, many of these masters did cross train themselves, as well......

not because of any absolute truth about them;

Is there an absolute truth about anything? Or at least, is there an absolute truth about the modern MMA approach?

and of course, here is where you and I differ, as I see everything as relative and nothing as absolute (of course, I am in good company, given that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu say pretty much the same thing); thus, your characterizing something as an irrelevant art may not be because that art doesn't conform to TCMA principles, it may be that you yourself cannot appreciate that in fact there is a valid relationship between say, bok mei and MT, or Long Fist and BJJ, or CLF and Boxing;

There is a valid relationship among every fighting art on the planet. Yet, old masters did not mish mash the concepts and principles of a given art with that of another!

A serious TCMA-ists should ask why, without jumping into the MMA-ist mindset trap of thinking that these masters were ignorant and unaware of modern science, the benefits of Olympic Weightlifting, and what have you.

so before you deride others on their own supposed lack of insight, perhaps it is your own subjective bias that requires you to adhere to a preconception about how things are supposed to work;

Not just my "preconception" but that of genuine kung fu masters of the past and the present.

all things evolve and change; it is the only constant;

I agree, and will go on to say that the TCMAs have evolved and will evolve for long after you and I have left this plain. However, one would wish that the evolution would be carried out in the hands of genuine kung fu masters and exponents who have understood their arts, before going on to improve them, and not in the hands of Jack of All Trades, MMA-ists whose kung fu "knowledge" has over 95% chance of being total crap.

I am making a fair point here.

one cannot cling to the promises of the past, one must deal with what is directly in front of one;

The techniques of the past that I have been exposed to can more than take care of whatever that happens to be infront of me. If I loose, then I am man enough to place the blame on myself, and not on all of the TCMA methodologies under the sun.

there are many paths to the top of the mountain, and sometimes those paths cross in unexpected ways;

They do and they have. NO arguments from me there.

you have chosen yours, and it is one that is at base uncritical of and fully trusting in what you have discerned to be the authentic TCMA principles inherent to what you characterize as a valid art; and certainly many here agree with you;

Well, about the d@mn time too.

but many do not,

That would be around 95% plus of them, I would guess.

and to continue to call their qualifications to do so in a valid way is at best disingenuous;

No, I call it the way I see it. When people come out and say that forms are useless; Chi Sao is useless; imply benefits associated with Olympic Weight training in regards to Internal methodolgies they do not understand; say Internals are fantasy; roots training is irrelevant; recommend cross training kung fu from day one; recommend sparring from day one, and so on, then as a TCMA practitioner I can only draw one conclusion, and that is they are "lost in the woods" clueless as regards authentic TCMA training!

[taai gihk yahn]

But if you say that you did not take it as a personal comment, then so be it.

ok, fair enough; well, I suppose that it was more of a preemptive qualification, in the sense that while I do tend to favor more of a "scientific method" as a general modus operandi, I am not doing so blindly, and my reasons for favoring its primacy are that in general it yields me what I find to be the most productive means of examining things; but you are correct in that your comment was a genera one, so I wasn't construing it as a personal attack per se;

anyway, you do make some valid points; at the same time there are obviously some things about which we are in all likelihood going to have to agree to disagree, especially as speaks to the supposed "wisdom" of past masters and the rationale for why a given system was delineated as such - not that I discount it out of hand, but I do not feel compelled to be beholden to it either, and have what I believe is a healthy dose of skepticism (and i follow the definition of a skeptic as one who makes a decision based on available information, but who is also wiling to radically alter their viewpoint when new evidence comes to light);

[sanjuro_ronin]

some ignorant people like to deride the use of forms, yet practicing forms has been established and continued for thousands of years even still to this day... why on earth should we believe that forms have suddenly become obsolete in the face of modern McMartial Arts???

BBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!
Nice one dude and everyone thinks you have no sense of humour !

[David Jamieson]

BBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!
Nice one dude and everyone thinks you have no sense of humour !

yeah, except for the "thousands of years" part, which is incorrect in respect to the establishment of formalized set training which is recent in respect to formalized martial arts delineation.

[uki]

you guy's ate this one right up... i believe forms are everything in the sense of they teach you to know your range, agility, speed, strengths, and weakness's of your bodies movements that can be utilized in combat. forms are self-expression and nothing more... if you express yourself with a healthy dose of intention, nothing you intend will go undone. forms are a medium of meditation to restore balance, harmony, and peace of mind. take it as you will, but the truly spiritual and upwardly mobile folks do not shy away from doing form...

without form there is nothing.

[SPJ]

The day when you have reached to your 70 years old, you will have the following options:

Which one will give you the best result for:

- flexibility,
- balance,
- power,
- speed,
- endurance,
- body alignment?

inactivity is the da killer.

I would add

1. 10,000 steps walk or ba gua or tong bei stepping.

2. weight training with 5# dumbell, to strengthen your muscle. curl up, lateral raise, shoulder press, crunches--

3. swimming

power may be gonner. but speed may be still there.

4. diet and medication to take good care of your heart, blood pressure, cholesterol etc

actually activity will reduce your blood pressure and burn extra calorie already.

[uki]

yeah, except for the "thousands of years" part, which is incorrect in respect to the establishment of formalized set training which is recent in respect to formalized martial arts delineation.

forms have been around much longer than the human race.

[taai gihk yahn]

BBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!
Nice one dude and everyone thinks you have no sense of humour !

Shut up.

yeah, except for the "thousands of years" part, which is incorrect in respect to the establishment of formalized set training which is recent in respect to formalized martial arts delineation.

SHUT UP!

you guy's ate this one right up... i believe forms are everything in the sense of they teach you to know your range, agility, speed, strengths, and weakness's of your bodies movements that can be utilized in combat. forms are self-expression and nothing more... if you express yourself with a healthy dose of intention, nothing you intend will go undone. forms are a medium of meditation to restore balance, harmony, and peace of mind. take it as you will, but the truly spiritual and upwardly mobile folks do not shy away from doing form...

without form there is nothing.

SHUT UP !!!

[David Jamieson]

you guy's ate this one right up... i believe forms are everything in the sense of they teach you to know your range, agility, speed, strengths, and weakness's of your bodies movements that can be utilized in combat. forms are self-expression and nothing more... if you express yourself with a healthy dose of intention, nothing you intend will go undone. forms are a medium of meditation to restore balance, harmony, and peace of mind. take it as you will, but the truly spiritual and upwardly mobile folks do not shy away from doing form...

without form there is nothing.

Forms are pre-arranged patterns.

They don't all have the same purpose. Some are a library of techniques, others are a prescribed path towards structural correction or health, others are for development of attributes elsewhere and so on.

they are a complex construct that not only escape the understanding of a great many people, but that escapes the understanding of people who actually practice them as well! lol

That's the best part in my opinion. hahhaha.

It's sometimes like someone who read a Dan Brown book trying to tell a Freemason what it's all about despite the masons years of work.

Or someone who just learned their first form, finally is able to remember teh pattern who then goes on to tell the world that he has discovered the one and true way of shaolin!

Enthusiasm can be an enemy...

[SPJ]

froms are just moves bundled up with smooth transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZJ4l-hTkcs

wow zumba alt dance work out.

dance is a good activity when you are heading toward senior ville or silver hairs town.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsSrq3HBa7A