ignorant people frown on forms

[David Jamieson]

What I find interesting is the concept that just because something is old, it is good. This couldn't be further from the truth. As time passes, intellect and thought processes grow and expand, making technologies of all sorts greater. If you look throughout history you will see time periods marked by great leaps in technology, intelligence, and and overall cultural shift towards abstract thought.

I believe forms have their place in martial arts. What that place is is determined by the practioner and how he/she develops from these forms. Forms are generally just basics done in a pre-set manner. There are skills one can gain by this practice, but there are other training methods that produce skill at a more beneficial level and rate. Since I'm sure I will be bombarded with people saying that is my opinion, yes, it is. But it also the opinion of those who fight professionally for a living. I'll take their opinion over someone who has never fought in their life.

But in the end, do what you want. Why do we care so much if somone does forms or not, if someone fights or not, if someone has "teh real" Kung Fu or not. Jesus, this sh**it gets old.

In your view, regarding fighting, what is new?
How about the human body? What's new?

lol.

I can think of lots of "new" ideas that are utter shyte.

For instance, the harmonized sales tax in Canada. lol
In America, TSA airport policies.
Around the world; "counter terrorism measures"

and so on...

There is plenty of value in many old things.

Take a pyramid on the giza plateau for instance. You show me one building from modern times with the staying power of that one.

Also, last but not least. Bread and Beer.

That's right, I said it, Bread and Beer. Two of the greatest and most aged recipes lost in antiquity and yet, you would never argue that Beer is bad or that Bread is passe.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In your view, regarding fighting, what is new?
How about the human body? What's new?

lol.

I can think of lots of "new" ideas that are utter shyte.

For instance, the harmonized sales tax in Canada. lol
In America, TSA airport policies.
Around the world; "counter terrorism measures"

and so on...

There is plenty of value in many old things.

Take a pyramid on the giza plateau for instance. You show me one building from modern times with the staying power of that one.

Also, last but not least. Bread and Beer.

That's right, I said it, Bread and Beer. Two of the greatest and most aged recipes lost in antiquity and yet, you would never argue that Beer is bad or that Bread is passe.

LOL, ok, we'll stick to fighting. Your right, nothing is new about the human body. We still have two arms, two legs, one head, yada, yada. But athletes are greater due to science and technology. Supplements, vitamins, strength training methods, all have contributed to making a better athlete. Modern training methods are not necessarily brand new, but more modern than most. Hitting mitts in boxing has been around a long time, maybe as long as forms, but likely more modern in that sense of it. I know which I find more effective.

In combat sports, look at the UFC's. Do you think any of them in their prime would stand a chance against a modern fighter now in their prime. Doubtful. Gracie got destroyed by Matt Hughes, granted he was way past his prime, but Hughes made him look like a novice, and Royce was the great champion of the first couple UFC's. All things evolve, if not, they are stagnant and dead. Fighting will always evolve in that sense.

[Hardwork108]

What I find interesting is the concept that just because something is old, it is good

As opposed to what, just because something is new, it is good??? Which is the same argument, except that the old, is many times, tried and tested!!!

[David Jamieson]

I think supplements are used to no avail in many incidences.
Plenty of people just pi55 away all that vitamin goodness they took in, or destroy it with some crap they ate earlier etc.

Yes, there is value in supplements, but supplements are what you ahve when you don't get access to a solid and healthy diet.

Guys on caveman diets doing crossfit routines are wicked hella strong and super fit and use no supplements. So, they are not a requirement and are a stop gap to poor dietary habits. That has less to do with fitness than to do with making the gateway for it for a person with poor dietary habits.

Strength training methods? the best ones these days are the functional strength development routines and those are based off of doing hard farm or fishery work. So, that is sort of supplemental to that! lol Do hard work and it's likely you won't have to do "work like" weight routines in the gym.

People of ancient Crete wore boxing gloves when boxing.
Many of the device training methods like weights, bags, stones, balls, etc are the same as they have always been. The materials are different and I think nautilus machines are a big advance in weight lifting because they keep everything in one place and are convenient, but, there isn't anything new about training really. People can just explain how they got their results better it seems to me.

Early UFCs had no weight categories and no one really stuck to the training they do now. It is now a style of it's own made up of kick/punch/throw/lock with preference towards martial arts that focus on those limited techniques then combined into a larger martial study.

So, would a lightweight UFC guy beat a Heavyweight UFC guy of yesteryear? Under whose rules? It was a different game.

Kung Fu is a different practice than MMA, which is different than boxing, which is different from wrestling , which is different from weapons study and so on.

It really is apples to oranges, or more accurately, the color blue to and asteroid named ted way out in the oort cloud.

Ok, maybe not that big of a stretch, but enough of a difference that comparing one to the other is mere pretext to some strawman argument about to be put forth by someone who is going to sell you lessons in his mma classes or someone selling you something the other way round.

My spin, is to do that which is preferable to me.

I realy don't care how deadly someone thinks they are, they won't be that for long and the more they go on about it, the more likely and the sooner it will be that someone comes and takes their deadly away.

[Mas Judt]

In combat sports, look at the UFC's. Do you think any of them in their prime would stand a chance against a modern fighter now in their prime. Doubtful. Gracie got destroyed by Matt Hughes, granted he was way past his prime, but Hughes made him look like a novice, and Royce was the great champion of the first couple UFC's. All things evolve, if not, they are stagnant and dead. Fighting will always evolve in that sense.

I'm not so sure it is a evolution as it is a revolution. As the rules change and as popular fight strategies change, so do the counters and new approaches. But most of it isn't anything completely new, merely a turn of the wheel.

[SoCo KungFu]

You guys have the concept of evolution misunderstood. Evolution in no way has to be progressive. Evolution can be quite regressive. Its simply a change. Nothing more. Human beings still have the same 2 arms and 2 legs. The environment is what has changed. Everyone was doing they're own little martial arts in their own relatively secluded regions of the world. Its the globalization of martials arts, really ALL martial arts these days, that is bring about the change. Chinaman meets the American boxer, only on a completely global scale. MMA doesn't bring anything "new." Its still an evolution taking place, everything is now just being jumbled up and practitioners of every art now have to figure out what they're missing. You know mutts are typically the healthiest dogs right?

[Syn7]

I may have missed that because I have interacted with plenty of IDIOTS who BLINDLY follow modern "science" and BLINDLY put down TCMA practices that they cannot explain using their BLIND belief in science.

I have seen such people who, when faced with a TCMA striking technique that they cannot understand (using their modern scientific training knowledge base) will not hesitate to hypothesize that the master who created the technique had some physical disability that made him do and teach what he did. Of course, they will assume that his disabilities had gone unnoticed by his pupils and future masters of the system.....LOL!

Yes these are people that will not think outside of their "scientific" boxes, to which they cling on blindly!

By your definition the above people are IDIOTS. So, you and I finally agree on something.....

oh but you forgot to include yourself for not reading something before you offer your critique...

we can agree on that all day, backpeddler....

[Syn7]

your argument is a rather unclear here; first you say you can learn to fight both by practicing forms and then by not practicing them; you hedge your bets by trying to qualify it that maybe forms are obsolete, and end with a vague statement about what may or may not be practical


so you basically admit that it was your personal perception of non-forms training as monotonous that causes you to choose forms training over more "mundane" repetative execises that may in fact allow you to more effectively and efficiently target the areas you need to work on; meaning that for you, you need to be entertained enough to practice something, the end results are not the only consideration, in fact you are willing to possibly gain less at the end as long as you are not bored on the way; which is fine, no judegement about that, but that's the long and short of it;


unless you are moving spontaneously without following a set routine, you are not shadow boxing;


yes you can; in fact, instead of "discovering" applications in forms that are based on your projection of what you think will work, why not just train the techniques you learn in a relatively live setting against a resisting opponent? like that you will discover what actually works as opposed to what you think might work;


and that right there is the crux of your argument; and no one can argue against your personal preference, nor should they; however, this does not give you or anyone the ability to generalize about something beyond that;


again, this is projection - unless he is actively going out and testing what he has discerned against resisting opponents who are not his students or training brothers, he has no way of knowing if his conjecture is valid;


I hate to say this, but you really don't make much sense here, you are kind of all over the place - you offer a variety of opinions, but offer no basis other than your personal preference for why they should hold true; and that's fine, for you as an individual; but you have no basis to generalize your comments


again, you say one thing than you say the opposite: "forms alone may not be enough" - well then, you really don't know one way or the other...


because there are other forms of exercise that can get you these benefits much more efficiently than TCMA forms - Feldenkreis, Piates, Alexander Technique, yoga, qigong, Ariga Gym, Laban - all modalties developed primarilly for health - how could a practice designed for martial use primarilly possibly hope to be more effective for health maintenance than a system designed primarilly for that purpose?


that's fine, but again, you make assertions that appear to be generalizations, when in fact you are stating, in a somewhat convoluted manner, your own personal rationale for why you do forms, which boils down to the fact that you like doing forms; which is fine; but that doesn't establish any sort of objective criteria for their utility as regards development of fighting skill as opposed to other methods;

come on T... leave the kid alone... he's the anus striker...!!!

[Syn7]

i follow the definition of a skeptic as one who makes a decision based on available information, but who is also wiling to radically alter their viewpoint when new evidence comes to light);

its crazy how many people dont see it that way.... i said the same thing, in other words to ED...

[Syn7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5izW...eature=related

for working out

repetition of a single move would give you some cardio, too.

circling hand or quan shou

splitting mountain or pi shan.

usually, we hit our thigh, the teacher added some difficulties in this clip.

they hit near ankle with a raised leg. that would force you to bend your back and extend your shoulder. this is the most important practice in tong bei or extended back or thru the back.

thats awesome exercise... the first part, done many times with power... i'll never disagree with that...

[Syn7]

froms are just moves bundled up with smooth transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZJ4l-hTkcs

wow zumba alt dance work out.

i like the fat guy in the back...

[Syn7]

I believe you made a remark inferring that my education was lacking. You used an epithet and when you say "x's" "y" is "sh1tty" then it's probably safe to assume you are having an emotional reaction to that which was stated as opposed to you know, debating the point with a counterpoint.



NO one is here to teach you how to comprehend. That is up to you.

wow... you really are a defensive guy huh...

[Syn7]

In your view, regarding fighting, what is new?
How about the human body? What's new?

lol.

I can think of lots of "new" ideas that are utter shyte.

For instance, the harmonized sales tax in Canada. lol
In America, TSA airport policies.
Around the world; "counter terrorism measures"

and so on...

There is plenty of value in many old things.

Take a pyramid on the giza plateau for instance. You show me one building from modern times with the staying power of that one.

Also, last but not least. Bread and Beer.

That's right, I said it, Bread and Beer. Two of the greatest and most aged recipes lost in antiquity and yet, you would never argue that Beer is bad or that Bread is passe.

there is no cumulitive effect if you stick with the old... keep the good toss the bad and look for new and better things while keeping what you know on par with the world around you... and today we are global... not as much as we will be in 20 years, or 50 years, but a whole lot more than 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago...



and we can talk wine if you want coz thats something i know about... and believe me you wouldnt drink the best falernian in a roman aristocrats collection, it was all pi$s compared to what we get for 8 bucks now... so just think how far the we've come in wine making... yes wine is good with age if bottled properly, but only to an extent... and todays wine will be a whole lot better than 100 year old wine today in 100 years... thats a fact...

[mooyingmantis]

You guys have the concept of evolution misunderstood. Evolution in no way has to be progressive. Evolution can be quite regressive. Its simply a change. Nothing more. Human beings still have the same 2 arms and 2 legs. The environment is what has changed. Everyone was doing they're own little martial arts in their own relatively secluded regions of the world. Its the globalization of martials arts, really ALL martial arts these days, that is bring about the change. Chinaman meets the American boxer, only on a completely global scale. MMA doesn't bring anything "new." Its still an evolution taking place, everything is now just being jumbled up and practitioners of every art now have to figure out what they're missing. You know mutts are typically the healthiest dogs right?

Nicely put!

[Syn7]

Nicely put!

word... the more dilluted the genepool, the stronger the subject...