my visit with hendrik

[FongSung]

Cho family lineage has been posted a few times by Hendrik already. Below is the Lineage as I have be told in Singapore and Poon Yee, China:

Yim Wing Chun
Leung Bak Sao
Cheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam)
Cho Dak Sing (CDS)

Hendrik would include Cho Shun, CDS's father, but he did not learn from his father but directly from Cheng Dan Kam. But because his father also learnt from Cheng Dan Kam then as tradition dictates a son and father can not be at the same level. Therefore when including the father in a "full" family tree CDS would be a level lower so it was explained to me.

As you say you live and train in Fatsan etc why don't you ask your Sifu's if they heard about Cho Dak Sing 曹德胜. Then you may have a lot of answers and maybe a bit of respect for the Yik Kam (Cho Family) Lineage.

How you talk to Hendrik about his research and idea's is between you both.

[Hendrik]

Cho family lineage has been posted a few times by Hendrik already. Below is the Lineage as I have be told in Singapore and Poon Yee, China:

Yim Wing Chun
Leung Bak Sao
Cheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam)
Cho Dak Sing (CDS)

Hendrik would include Cho Shun, CDS's father, but he did not learn from his father but directly from Cheng Dan Kam. But because his father also learnt from Cheng Dan Kam then as tradition dictates a son and father can not be at the same level. Therefore when including the father in a "full" family tree CDS would be a level lower so it was explained to me.

As you say you live and train in Fatsan etc why don't you ask your Sifu's if they heard about Cho Dak Sing 曹德胜. Then you may have a lot of answers and maybe a bit of respect for the Yik Kam (Cho Family) Lineage.

How you talk to Hendrik about his research and idea's is between you both.

Fong,

Thanks for your post. If you read my previous post, there are those I declare ignore, so there is nothing between me and these people. Thus, there is no Between "You both" but there is no interest on nonsense.

Yik Kam and Cho lineage are clean and solid. Including the 108 SLT and kuen kuit well preserve and solid. There is no need to answer to these people because we have a solid background. Facts speak louder.

As for respect, dont ask for respect from those who has evil heart. and those who has evil heart always will pay for their own karma anyway. So, forgive them and their behavior is between them and God. We are free.


With Moduk, one doesnt behave the way how these people behave. so that also told the story of these people. And facing a No Moduk people, the best is to ignore them and report to law enforcement if they violate law. These public forum is great because anything and everything they posts will be cite if they are under investigation.


Everyone watch Ip Man the movie, too bad what these people practices are exactly like what those evil Japanese war criminal does. That is how they behave.

Hope that you rest this case now.

[Hendrik]

Actually WCK is all about fighting. If your WCK is not about fighting, then it's not WCK: it's just dancing. You don't want to talk about it because you can't do it. This makes you the definition of a "theoretical nonfighter" (copyright T. Neihoff).

Good luck with your omei dance routines, perhaps Beyonce will use them one day.

" I will praise the movie for portraying and capturing some of the spirit of the traditional Chinese martial arts. Ip Man extols in the prison scene, “Chinese martial arts is based on Confucianism – (you should treat others as you yourself would like to be treated) – that is why there is Wu De – martial virtue. Perfection of technique alone as in martial skill or power will just lead you to bully others.”

In my opinion, this is why today’s martial arts world suffers from infighting and petty rivalry. One is not complete… unless one can be complete in the art, in the mind, spirit and body,... " -- Sifu Robert Chu


Robert's view is exactly what I believe.


BTW. Omei 12 zhuang is not a dance, it is an advance martial art which the chinese gorvenment is preserving its documents in Beijing Museum, Beijing, China. Do you have an art which is up to that level and quality? if not you dont even know what the heck you are talking about.

[Hendrik]

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?

KFF,

Good question, I leave this to Theo.

With the way how some one negative high jacking this thread. Theo might have to delete this thread because there in no point to share with all of these noise.

[Wayfaring]

Fighting is a part of WCK however it is one's choice to talk about it or not.
Not talk about fighting doesnt means one cant fight, and talk or keep sparing also doesnt mean one is a good fighter.

There is no room for one to force others to make fighting a must to reveal to public since in Chinese Martial art tradition, one needs to place Wu De in an important place then fighting; and this is WCK forum.

So WCK has fighting as a part, however your recommendation is not to talk about it, not to spar to prepare for it?

And something about Chinese Martial art tradition prevents being open about fighting?

Wow - I learn new things every day. Please explain more to me about this Chinese Martial art tradition that prevents you from talking about fighting and sparring to prepare for fighting. And to place everything else in the martial art above fighting.

Is there also a Chinese art tradition that prevents painters from talking about painting?

[Wayfaring]

As for the Hua Jing and Fa Jing stuffs, if one cant handle the basic momentum then IMHO forget about fighting. What to fight? use what to fight?

On the other hand, if Hua Jing and Fa Jing "stuffs" are focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting, and low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?

Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?

And also, what does it prove to fight and sparing without basic of WCK technology? when sharing the basic and fundamental of WCK technology is the focus? keeping sparing or fighting is not going to get one those important fundamental and not neccessary could become a good figher either, so what to prove? sure keep fighting or sparring might earn one some fighting tricks but that is not in the context of this thread.

If in a martial art, becoming a good fighter is not a goal, then one should replace the martial art with something that more directly applies to your goal. Become a good monk, become a dancer, become a philanthropist, become a philosopher, become a healer.

If one could think clearly one wont post those nonsense trouble finding posts. but then, there are those who purposely attack me since decade ago due to their political agenda or hate. and thus, I choose to ignore these people because their behavior is obvious.

If one finds that focusing more directly upon one's goal is a nonsense trouble finding post, then the conclusion must be that one's goal is to be a wanderer, never arriving anywhere. And that other goals are ethereal and lack grounding.

For those whose goal in a martial art is at least in part to develop martial skill, then fighting is simply a necessary element. Like a stopwatch is to one developing skill in running. It is simply a good test. Like climbing a mountain, running a 10K, disciplining one's self to healthier eating, or other worthwhile goals. A measurement only, and one that is casual at that. Not one that causes extreme emotional reaction. Such a reaction points to a dreamer.

[horserider]

I think Mr. Wayfaring you do not see Mr Hendrik point.

You may study wing chun but fight like a boxer . You may be a great fighter but you are not a wing chun fighter. Why spend time with wing chun if you do not use wing chun to fight?


To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded. Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.

[Hendrik]

To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded. Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.

That's right, the is no other way to be a Wing Chun person that fights with Wing Chun. One must know the basic elements, and only then one could take advantage of WCk uniqueness. No snake and crane will have no boomerang strike and short distance fast accelerate jing.


I show the short jin concept strike to Theo, body keep loose, make a fist from the open hand, when the hand become fist, that is the time of contact, and the force vector pentrate my other palm which I am contacting, go through one soft pillow, penetrate his holding arm, going through another pillow, and enter his body to knock his center of gravity off. it shoots out like releasing an arrow. not tensing muscle no strecthing....etc. the momentum is generate by a combination of a few types of momentum in my body. it is like parallel a few flying wheel together to generate the momentum so that the distance is much shorter compare with a linear momentum.. and accelerate much faster then linear momentum generation..etc and there are lots of other benifit.

speaking of Peng Jing and Hua Jing,
Peng needs root to sustain incoming force to produce a mirror force vectors, thus touching it feels like a wall.
Hua needs to do the oposite which is disolving one's own root so the incoming force doesnt have a reaction point to land on.

This type of jing is also nothing big deal, art like Yee Chuan of Wang Xiang Chia also has it. However, without knowing the six directional force vectors and the training of snake slide to activate the joints of the body, it will not get there. the body is not transform to be able to do it.


These are just basic TCMA power/momentum handling generation.
it is all about handling momentum in a 3 D space. nothing big deal. But if one cant get this from the set one does, then it is hopeless. Not to mention if one have not even heard and seen these stuffs. and making degrading claim on these stuffs like blind man claiming there is no sun.

Advance TCMA? the whole body is like a bag of mercury, the intention moves, the qi goes with it, and the body bounce. Those are real stuffs which the advance TCMA dont bother to argue about it.




Every part of the set is not waste action, every kuen kuit means something. body, mind, qi all are available for action. IMHO, only if one get up to this level one is consider enter the door of TCMA.

Certainly, as in the IP Man II movie there are people behave like the Twister. Well, that is ok with me, however, Twister is not my style be it in martial or behave as a human.

Thus, if one want to talk WCK then one needs to follow WCK's ancestors creation. It is nonsense trying to call what ever one did WCK where one is clueless on what WCK is. that in Chinese is called hanging the goat's head but selling the meat of dog.

One cant make claim like Ip Man but doing all what Twister did. Hope those who love WCK knows there are advance stuffs which we have almost totally lost. help yourself to get back these stuffs for your own lineage and dont let it died out, you need the snake otherwise the soul of WCK art will not be there. Why wasting your set practice?

This is a WCK thread, thus, off mark post are ignored to not waste energy.

[kung fu fighter]

Peng needs root to sustain incoming force to produce a mirror force vectors, thus touching it feels like a wall.
Hua needs to do the oposite which is disolving one's own root so the incoming force doesnt have a reaction point to land on.

How does one deal with the opponent's force vector if one disolve his own root which is used to ground the opponent's incoming force?

[t_niehoff]

I think Mr. Wayfaring you do not see Mr Hendrik point.

Hendrik can make it difficult to see his point.

You may study wing chun but fight like a boxer . You may be a great fighter but you are not a wing chun fighter. Why spend time with wing chun if you do not use wing chun to fight?

That is an important question.

To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded.

I prefer to look at it slightly differently -- it's not so much doing it "as intended" (which I think is a self-limiting POV) but rather learning the approach to fighting that our ancestors' developed. There is a distinction.

Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.

Yes, that is what I understand Hendrik to be saying as well.

My issue with that is that you can't really learn the structure, gings, etc. except through application -- by actually doing whatever it is under realistic conditions. The forms and unrealistic practices (drills/exercises) are superficial. You can't learn how to throw a ball except by and through actually throwing the ball. Mimicking the action, the ging, etc. won't really teach you how to DO it.

Moreover, those unrealistic practices more often than not lead us in the wrong direction.

BTW, good to see you posting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The law of specificity is NOT just for strength training but is applicable to all methods of "body work", perhaps even more so Martial arts.
Even MORE so highly specialized MA.

[Hendrik]

The law of specificity is NOT just for strength training but is applicable to all methods of "body work", perhaps even more so Martial arts.
Even MORE so highly specialized MA.

The TCMA has the power/Momentum generation/handling fuse with the uniqueness of application strategy, implement via the conditioning of body - mind -breathing.

Using the six directional forces, physical elements such as joints and weight, mental state entering, and the 12 energy/qi medirians models holisitcally cover both the generation, application, and body-mind conditioning.

those are just the basic of internal TCMA.

The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.

The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the requirements needed.


The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA, but using one's partial view to judge what TCMA is ;which is actually equavalent to flying blind.

and then when one's limitation was pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.

[Wayfaring]

I think Mr. Wayfaring you do not see Mr Hendrik point.

You may study wing chun but fight like a boxer . You may be a great fighter but you are not a wing chun fighter. Why spend time with wing chun if you do not use wing chun to fight?

Quite the opposite. Mr. Hendrik does not see my point, and by choice. He refuses to respond to my point and instead labels it "troublemaking post". This is what I call "preferred blindness". You don't want to address a major problem with your training so instead you ignore it when it comes up.

Don't infer from my posts that I fight like a boxer. I just train with some. And in doing that it points out areas where "boomerang strikes", "short distance accelerated jing", and other such cool sounding terms are not as important as other WCK concepts. I use what I have learned in WCK to fight. Or more precisely, to practice fighting.

For you and Hendrik the question is similar. If you don't fight or practice fighting, why spend time with wing chun? To show SLT as a beautiful dance? For meditation? That's OK, but not real.

To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded. Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

How would you know? You are not a person that fights with wing chun, so how can you teach someone else to?

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.

If one gets to the point where they are the lineage holder for a branch of WCK and yet they never take the next step, what then?

Where is this next step? In your mind? Certainly not in your practice.

[Wayfaring]

The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.

No, IMO the issue is someone saying they have a complete TCMA but that it is not intended to be used as a MA, and never using it as a MA. Thus the end destination being only having the TC part because the MA part has atrophied like the muscles of a broken arm when you take a cast off.

The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the contents needed.

I agree with this statement. Practicing the set according to contents needed includes the originally intended context - MA.

The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA using the one's partial view to judge what TCMA is which is actually equavalent to flying blind. and when pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.

My point is it is impossible to understand TCMA while removing the MA part of it.

[Wayfaring]

My issue with that is that you can't really learn the structure, gings, etc. except through application -- by actually doing whatever it is under realistic conditions. The forms and unrealistic practices (drills/exercises) are superficial. You can't learn how to throw a ball except by and through actually throwing the ball. Mimicking the action, the ging, etc. won't really teach you how to DO it.

Moreover, those unrealistic practices more often than not lead us in the wrong direction.

This is pretty much where I was going with the discussion, maybe with a slight distinction. I do feel the forms have an intended meditative and holistic side to them as well - the drills / exercises lead towards application, and consistent training in an alive environment fighting context is what leads in the right direction.