Forms training is only good for performing Forms!!!

[ginosifu]

theres no such thing as an advanced set. its just to make money from white people.

I disagree !

To perform a set like Hung Gar's Iron Wire takes a couple of years of training of the basics before you will be able to "Do It Right". You will not be able to achieve the benefits of the form, because you lack the skills to do it properly.

ginosifu

[Lucas]

beginner in MA or just beginner in style

if you take a new student who has 15 year experience, is he looked at as incompetent as a 15 year old new to MA in general? how do you decide to progress someone who has prior experience, maybe in something like muay thai or judo?

[MightyB]

Beginners do not have the basic concepts perfected, which lead to improper execution and or Injury.

ginosifu

I can agree - but I don't think there's a good way to define when a person is not a "beginner" based on an arbitrary number of forms. Some people display the needed attributes very early. I think there's a failure on the part of the teacher if he/she doesn't recognize when that happens based on a false notion of tradition. One way of looking at it is in systems where there are a lot of forms, you often see some difference in how schools define what sets are "advanced".

[ginosifu]

beginner in MA or just beginner in style

if you take a new student who has 15 year experience, is he looked at as incompetent as a 15 year old new to MA in general?

Yes and no:

Different styles of MA have different theories. 15 years of Kenpo gives you a big problem in kung fu. How you move, how you strike is way different.

Example:

Some styles pivot on the balls of their foot. Some styles pivot on their heels. If you have been pivoting on the ball of your foot for 15 years and your new style pivots on the heel, you probably need to start over and get the basics of the new system.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms, by their typical definition, are a set of pre-arranged moves done in a predetermined fashion.
They serve a purpose and historically that purpose was, like Ross mentioned, to catalogue techniuues, principles the core of the system.

You will find forms in every MA to one degree or another, but Asian MA tend to "*****" the notion of continuing to do prearranged forms even with the basic concept is grasped and progression is better accomplished in a "free style manner" as in the case of Most sport combat systems or armed combat systems.

Let us using boxing as an example:
From early one Boxing had prearranged forms, these form became more like prearragned drills like the ones we have today, once the boxer has grasped the basics he moves on to "freestyle" form called shadowboxing.

Western and many eastern forms of armed and unarmed combat follow this mode.

[bawang]

I disagree !

To perform a set like Hung Gar's Iron Wire takes a couple of years of training of the basics before you will be able to "Do It Right". You will not be able to achieve the benefits of the form, because you lack the skills to do it properly.

ginosifu

i dont know anything about iron wire so ill take ur word. but other than that theres nothing special about any other advanced form. its all the same.

[SPJ]

I ususally do single move drills or dan cao shou.

or combo of a few moves strung together.


longer forms have special focus or theme.

forms = single move, combo move strung together.

you may take forms apart and practice each move or posture over and over.

[MightyB]

Yes and no:

Different styles of MA have different theories. 15 years of Kenpo gives you a big problem in kung fu. How you move, how you strike is way different.

Example:

Some styles pivot on the balls of their foot. Some styles pivot on their heels. If you have been pivoting on the ball of your foot for 15 years and your new style pivots on the heel, you probably need to start over and get the basics of the new system.

ginosifu

Food for thought...

[Lucas]

gotcha. i remember one time we were practicing flying sidekick on the heavy bag, i watched someone tear their acl doing that....i suppose they werent ready for it. they had 5+ years on top of me and I fly like batman. so i suppose that the principles can sometimes be more important than the physical qualifications.

[David Jamieson]

i dont know anything about iron wire so ill take ur word. but other than that theres nothing special about any other advanced form. its all the same.

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that...

as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called "internal" work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.

[ginosifu]

I can agree - but I don't think there's a good way to define when a person is not a "beginner" based on an arbitrary number of forms. Some people display the needed attributes very early. I think there's a failure on the part of the teacher if he/she doesn't recognize when that happens based on a false notion of tradition. One way of looking at it is in systems where there are a lot of forms, you often see some difference in how schools define what sets are "advanced".

I have given students with exceptional skills, "Higher Level" forms for tournaments. If they do not compete, why do they need this material? To show off that they can do it? If the argument is for tournament competitions.... yes to an extent we can give higher level forms, but only to those with exceptional skills.

ginosifu

[goju]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
.

and what combat use does this move serve?

[MightyB]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that...

Yes - if you take a person with moderate to high athletic ability... yes. But first you'd need to train the splits until they can do them comfortably, and then you need to train the cartwheel. You can take a varsity high school cheer leader and train her this technique tomorrow if you'd like and you'd see that Yes, she can indeed be taught this movement and have no prior MA training.

This begs a different question: Why is there a need to do the splits after doing a one-handed cartwheel?

[bawang]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that...

as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called "internal" work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.

that depends on what u think is "advanced". i think acrobatic movements doesnt equal advanced fighting concepts. flippin and spinnin is hard to do, but has nothing to do with fighting.

[Lucas]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that...

as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called "internal" work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.

i agree with what you are saying about advanced physical techniques. but that in itself can be another can of worms. there are those that would say, you never need 1 hand cartwheel to splits.

however i recently saw a judo turney where an escape was made via 1 arm cartwheel