Questions for TCMA teachers.

[Lucas]

If forms are part of your curriculum, do you require everyone to learn the same forms? If a man (or woman I suppose ) comes in to your school and is interested in learning cma for defense and possibly fight competition but is turned off by the idea of forms, are you willing to make an exception from your normal curriculum for that individual, or do you turn them away? If they express at the introduction that they do not seek to carry on as a teacher to the masses, and are only there to learn the martial for themselves, are they viewed in a different light?

the main reason I ask is this:

Through our mariad of discussions we have had here as a community, its become KFMO common knowledge that;

1. forms are a relatively recent addition in the grand scheme of CMA.

2. forms are not needed to become a fighter.

3. forms are generally for a 'lineage bearer' or for someone to carry on the style. everything within the style can be transmitted through other fashions for a personal martial artist.

Could it be argued that to turn that individual away is non traditional based soley on the fact that they are not interested in form work?

Final question:

Does any teacher here that use forms as a tool for teaching have any students that fit this criteria and is learning your style through methods not generally standard of your school, and if so, is there any noticable lack or gain the general development in your experienced relating to prior/current students who have gone through the standard process.

Thanks

[KC Elbows]

What, and lose all that revenue from my demo team of internal form players, The Molasses Tigers? They're like the harlem globetrotters of slow forms, but book in advance, this is the busy season at retirement homes.

Oddly, all the people I'm teaching now want to know the form, but I wouldn't be averse to teaching someone more based on techs and principles, most of the classes are more that, anyway.

[Lucas]

I'm really up and down with forms. In my experience some forms, once learned, can totally be dropped unless you personally like doing them. However thats rarely the case in many cma schools. Group forms are a great example.

I understand the reasoning behind doing forms as a group, as well as having people who can perform that set with ease, power, and grace being a good example for those less skilled at that set. Generally though its everyone every time for all group sets.

seriously i dont want to spend the next 20 minutes doing something im good at, and dont even want to do anymore, with people who suck at it. id rather be working pads, sparring, working a set i am actually developing, or some other aspect of training that i feel would put my time to better use.

its almost like you are pressured into being some aspect of instructional tool, which i do understand...to an extent. I live in the USA. in my country we worship money as god and dole out our life in portions of funds....should i be giving you my time and life to be your tool?

/tangent

[EarthDragon]

If forms are part of your curriculum, do you require everyone to learn the same forms? If a man (or woman I suppose ) comes in to your school and is interested in learning cma for defense and possibly fight competition but is turned off by the idea of forms, are you willing to make an exception from your normal curriculum for that individual, or do you turn them away? If they express at the introduction that they do not seek to carry on as a teacher to the masses, and are only there to learn the martial for themselves, are they viewed in a different light?

great question, we have 5 forms and they encompass the applications that are needed to use mantis and some of ts techniques.

I would not make an execption its the way I teach, if they want to fight only I put them in our MMA class, but I would never turn anyone who honstly wants to learn away ever. But forms are good for what they are nothing more. I dont hid behind them as some schools do, again we only have 5

Does any teacher here that use forms as a tool for teaching have any students that fit this criteria and is learning your style through methods not generally standard of your school, and if so, is there any noticable lack or gain the general development in your experienced relating to prior/current students who have gone through the standard process.

yes i do I currently teach 4 black belts from other styles 2 from TKD, karate and KF and they didnt want to learn our way, they just want to be better MA/fighters and use what they knew in a better way,
so i crossed hands with everyone of them the first class. This showed me thier weaknesses as well as the chance to drop them on their arsses and show them i was worthy of thier money and time.
All the moves and counters that I did was from our system except for one guy who went to the ground them i had to submit.

After that i could prety much tell them how to train and they listened. If you have a BB and walk into a school and get beat pretty quickly and easily chances are your going to train how ever that guy has....

[Lucas]

if they want to fight only i put them in our MMA class,

is your mma class comprised of mantis?

[ginosifu]

If they have no desire for forms I would direct to my Shuai Chiao / San Shou class. This is sorta irrelevant to me because most average (99%) people walking thru my door have no clue what a class structure is like. Very few know what they want. Of the few that know... SC / SS are for the peeps that strictly want sport or street fighting without the forms.

ginosifu

[Lucas]

If they have no desire for forms I would direct to my Shuai Chiao / San Shou class. This is sorta irrelevant to me because most average (99%) people walking thru my door have no clue what a class structure is like. Very few know what they want. Of the few that know... SC / SS are for the peeps that strictly want sport or street fighting without the forms.

ginosifu

That makes a lot of sense to me. I think its awesome that you have that outlet.

Do you have any suggestions for a school that does not offer that same alternative?

[mooyingmantis]

I only offer four forms a student can learn. In my school learning one form is mandatory. If you don't have the discipline to learn one form, you aren't worth my time. The key is discipline. Besides, every fighting principle I will teach you is contained in the one form.

Only about ten to fifteen minutes of class time is spent on form work. All the other time is spent on drilling (wooden man, focus mitts, two man), theory and sparring.

In my school it is my way, or the highway. If you think you know how I should teach you, you should be teaching rather than asking me to teach you. Since your knowledge must be superior to mine (at least in your fantasy world).

[David Jamieson]

You make a good point Richard. The discipline aspect of having to physically and mentally memorize structures and forces is not to be belittled. Learning a form actually changes how you think about physical discipline.

Thumbs up on that clear point.

[Lucas]

I only offer four forms a student can learn. In my school learning one form is mandatory. If you don't have the discipline to learn one form, you aren't worth my time. The key is discipline. Besides, every fighting principle I will teach you is contained in the one form.

Only about ten to fifteen minutes of class time is spent on form work. All the other time is spent on drilling (wooden man, focus mitts, two man), theory and sparring.

In my school it is my way, or the highway. If you think you know how I should teach you, you should be teaching rather than asking me to teach you. Since your knowledge must be superior to mine (at least in your fantasy world).

do you give the student a form based on your assessment of them, or does each person start with one form in particular? also if someone thinks their sh!t dont stink, but in reality it stinks very badly, do you say 'hey your sh!t really stinks, you arent done with form buddy'

it seems to me there is a lot of common ground between teachers, but there is also a pretty wide variance on methods of instruction.

one of the reasons i started this thread is to kind of see what some of the professional teachers generally think in regards to new students and the required development of their school

[TenTigers]

Sifu David Rogers of Rising Crane has a similar approach as Gino Sifu has, if I'm not mistaken.
Perhaps when my grappling, SC and Sanda curriculum is wired tighter, I will go a similar route. For now, I take the approach as Richard. My way or the highway.

[Lucas]

The 'my way or the highway' is the most common method ive encountered.

To a large extent i do agree. To a smaller extent I wonder if some gems in the rough are turned away along with the filth.

Some of the 'my way highway' are very extreme.

We have all met people burned by form factories. A lot of times those people develop a distinct dislike of forms based on their experience.

If a prospective student with a bad experience shares that with you, how do you differentiate your school from their previous one in terms of form use. And how do you drive home to them that 'your form way or high way' is any different than that last doche that took them for a ride on their highway??

This is part of why it seems MMA is so attractive to people new to MA. It seems like a mma program like earth dragon or a sc/ss program like gino sifu may be a way to combat this ignorance in the masses, yet at the same time show through doing what cma actually represents.

Gino sifu, do you ever see any cross over from people deciding to become more traditional later on in their training after doing sc/ss only for a while? likewise, earthdragon, do you notice this from your mma program at all?

[YouKnowWho]

I won't even teach forms if people pay me good money for it. I had spent a good part of my life time in forms. I just don't feel like to spend any more of my life time in it. The integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game will be what I'm interesting for the rest of my life.

[Lucas]

I won't even teach forms if people pay me good money for it.

You made me choke on my water with that one.

[bawang]

forms have a lot of important concepts and techniques of ur style. if stuff from ur form doesnt work it shows complete failure of ur style. doing good at sanda proves nothing. it shows u r good at sanda.

its better to have chiense martial arts go extinct than force itself to be something its not.

oldest diagram of northern kung fu postures date over 500 years old. in chinese martial arts 1000 year old history is not a myth but a possibility. a lot of people dont know what theyre throwing away.


european society is fluid and transient. there is no connection with the past. anglo saxons and middle ages is foreign and far awar to an average westerner. in chinese culture there is root and continuity. its easy for outsider to watch some kung fu movies, get bored and do mma. for me ill stay true to my race and culture and preserve this ancient way of life.