Can Tiger/Crane Form Be a Separate System?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You forgot the special Iron Whip (Tiet Bien Kuen) uber male ***** set of Hung Ga. That's the one for attracting chicks and lifting 500 lbs of iron plates with your iron rod. I guess you could lift chicks with the iron whip also.

Now you know why Hung Ga is so popular.

Hung says it all !

[TenTigers]

There are aspects in FHSYK that are simply not found in GJFFK. FHSYK places greater emphasis on the softer aspects of the bridge, the coiling of the waist, angling of the body and combining of these.

[David Jamieson]

GGFFK = old shaolin and foundation for all Hung Gar based off of Shaolin Tiger.

FHSYK = a later addition and what has become a hallmark and pillar set of teh Hung Kuen system(s).

iron thread was brought in from outside the system and the principles of that set are not alone in belonging to Hung Kuen although, they cna certainly be credited with it,s preservation in many ways.

Given the choice, I would put more study into the first in order to enhance the second and I would use the third to enhance them both.

[chusauli]

Hung says it all !

That's right!!!

[Laukarbo]

iron thread was brought in from outside the system and the principles of that set are not alone in belonging to Hung Kuen although, they cna certainly be credited with it,s preservation in many ways.

.

actually,thats something that hasnt been discussed much..how was the set up of iron thread before Wong Fei Hung learned it from Lam Fook Sing ? Are there any written recordings ? because imho WFH must have modified the set a lot,if it really was a set..maybe just exercises... the beginning is very similar to gung gee fook fu kuen...

[blackjesus]

Practice also makes permanent.

Practice without guidance can lead to permanently imbued bad habits, LOL.

That's why the saying goes PERFECT partice makes perfect. :-)

[mooyingmantis]

Both GGFF and FHSYK are wonderful sets. However, if I were going to drop all the sets except one Sup Ying Kuen would be my choice. I just think it is indicative of what old schools shaolin was. Plus it has the "cool" factor.

[SteveLau]

This topic has been discussed somewhat before on the Web - can the Tiger and Crane set alone generates a formidable fighter? Well IMHO, the set comprises of the foundations of Hung Gar system, and is more on the side of combat application. So, my answer to both questions is yes. However, as a separate system, it is does not have sufficient material to bring the student to the advanced level.



KC
Hong Kong

[ginosifu]

One thing that I would like to point is that FORMS are not the system. Forms are just tools inside the system to help the student learn different aspects training. My Sifu told a long time ago that forms give FLAVOR to the system. Look at Lam Tsai Wing Hung Kuen VS Tang Fang Hung Kuen. The theory behind all the movements are the same, however they have diiferent looking forms. Neither are right or wrong, just a different taste if you will.

No form EVER gave birth to any technique... techniques all came first thru trial and error. Then eventually people started linking techniques togther forming combinations. Combinations became longer and longer evolving into forms. So with that said, the way I was taught was drill drill drill drill... We would drill techniques solo, partner, with sparring gear on etc etc. Drills were all different types some single meovement, 2 or 3 move combinations, some long chains of techniques, some were 2 person mini drill fights etc etc. Some came from forms most of them did not.

My personal opinion is it does not matter what form you use in your kwoon. Whatever form(s) the teacher has are fine. What your goals are may differ from school to school. Some schools focus on fighting, some on health and fitness, some on forms, whatever floats your boat. if you are going to pick a form to learn... investigate.... find some clips of different ones and see what suits you. Then choose

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

actually,thats something that hasnt been discussed much..how was the set up of iron thread before Wong Fei Hung learned it from Lam Fook Sing ? Are there any written recordings ? because imho WFH must have modified the set a lot,if it really was a set..maybe just exercises... the beginning is very similar to gung gee fook fu kuen...

I believe that is due to WFH's formatting of the sets, adding the elements of Tiet Sien Kuen to the beginning of the pillar forms.

[ginosifu]

Getting back to the original question: Can we use only 1 form for a system?

The answer is YES and NO.

If you are practicing kung fu only for Health and Fitness, Yes. However the Sifu would need to have internal training methods to give to the students besides the form.

If you are practicing kung fu just to learn a Form, Yes. However if you are learning form(s) for tournament competition, you probably will need a few more sets (weapon forms, 2 person forms etc etc).

If you are learning kung fu to Fight, Yes and No. besides a form the Sifu needs to have plenty of fighting drills (some from the form and most fight situationals). If you are going to add internal aspects to their fighting, again the Sifu needs to able to teach these aspects. Internal training starts with no relation to the forms, however you can add internal aspects to any form.

A side note:

Whether or not WFH modified any forms is irrellevant. The theorys of any system are the core and define it. How a forms looks is really just personal interpretation and flavor. Over the years all masters added their own personal flavor to their sets, however the theory always remains the same. As long as you use theory when applying the moves.... you are doing the system. We do not and will probably never know exactly what the forms were originally. Everyone over the ages added their own personality, modified what they thought was pertinent for their times, but still adhered to theory. This is what makes Chinese kung fu unique.

ginosifu

[SteveLau]

After I have read rginosifu's second post, I understand the reasoning behind his assertions. So let me explain a bit further of my answer to the topic question. The Tiger/Crane handset is a representative handset of Hung Gar because it has touched the system core materials. Though it does not cover the full width and depth of all, the student who is well versed of it should be able to take what he has acquired to form a separate system. Because the sifu who has taught his students everythings of the handset should include the theories, training methods, and application of the techniques. Thus, the sifu or the student himself can design other training tools out of the Tiger/Crane handset. So there is no need to take materials from other handsets like the other 3 pillars. And that is what I meant when I said the handset by itself has sufficient materials to form a separate system.




KC
Hong Kong

[V.O.R.]

If you are practicing kung fu only for Health and Fitness, Yes. However the Sifu would need to have internal training methods to give to the students besides the form.

Hmmm. Extremely interesting. Sir, can you explain why a sifu would the need to have internal training methods to give to his students?

If you are practicing kung fu just to learn a Form, Yes. However if you are learning form(s) for tournament competition, you probably will need a few more sets (weapon forms, 2 person forms etc etc).

Why would he need to learn a few extra forms to be able to perfect the first one he learned? I'm sorry, I'm only trying to grasp your comments.

Thank you Gino Sifu in advance.

[ginosifu]

(1) Hmmm. Extremely interesting. Sir, can you explain why a sifu would the need to have internal training methods to give to his students?

(2) Why would he need to learn a few extra forms to be able to perfect the first one he learned? I'm sorry, I'm only trying to grasp your comments.

(1) The way I was taught is that internal training is a high level aspect of any system. Taking ernegy (Qi / Chi) and learning how to strengthen it, manipulate it and being able to hit your opponent with internal power. For a lot of people this is not a conceavable thing. When people ask, what the heck I am talking about, normally I will ask If I can hit them (Lightly, not to hard). When I hit them, they usually tell me they felt something wierd bouncing / moving around inside there bodys. This energy transfer is just a small example of Qi / Chi.

There are some systems that do not use this type of power, but there are many that do.

Internal training is aslo a way to bring health to the students. Qi Gong / Chi Gung training is a good for any style, it helps with breathing / improving the immune system.

(2) Only reason people would need any more forms if they wish to compete in tournaments. When competeing, you may want to have a "Empty Hand Form" and a "Weapon Form" or a "2 Person Empty Hand Form" or a "2 Person Weapon Form"

[TenTigers]

in higher ranks, in the event of a tie, the competitor often must perform a second form.