Can Tiger/Crane Form Be a Separate System?

[cerebus]

Just wondering, for anyone who has trained extensively in Hung Gar Kuen, do you feel that the Tiger and Crane set could be trained as a method in and of itself? I've long been interested in Hung Gar and it's always seemed to me that the Tiger/Crane set had a wide enough variety of techniques and concepts to stand on its own. What are your thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It can be a stand alone form in Hung Kuen, yes,
In the sense that no other form is needed.
Not sure if it can be a separate system unto itself since it doesn't address all of what combat implies.

[ginosifu]

A form is not the whole system. However, some system's only use 1 form like Tiger / Crane. Forms are only tools to enhance training in the system.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

IMHO, many of the techniques in Tiger Crane require a more solid foundation in Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen in order to "prepare" the body-meaning larger movements,skills, power generation, etc. Can they be taught without it? Sure. Wing Chun and other short bridging systems start there and incorperate power development into the system through supplementary training.
The beauty in Hung Kuen lies in the fact that it can be played on any level. You can learn Gung Ji Fook Fu and use the techniques within that set as a stand alone system.* The 'higher level' techniques, meaning smaller movements, coiling, deflecting/trapping, angling, where as my teacher says, "the gaps are smaller," are introduced and focused on, in FHSYK. Many never really develop this, as this also takes more time to develop, and is part of the 'ripening' in the Siu Lum Hung Kuen practitioner.
Learning the form itself will teach you nothing. It won't "bring you to a higher level," That comes from your Sifu, not from forms collecting.
That only happens in the movies, where the young hero learns th3 deadly Tiger Crane form and then defeats the evil Bak Mei Priest, yadda-yadda...

"Put the DVD down and step away from the television!"

*more of a stand alone "striking system" (nods to Sanjuro)

[lkfmdc]

IMHO, many of the techniques in Tiger Crane require a more solid foundation in Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen in order to "prepare" the body-meaning larger movements,skills, power generation, etc.

IMO, that is outdated thinking. Any technique or skill can be taught. It is not about "learn form X first, then form Y", it's about HOW you train someone

[TenTigers]

. Can they be taught without it? Sure. Wing Chun and other short bridging systems start there and incorperate power development into the system through supplementary training.

yep-hence the quote. It's just in my experience, especially in SPM,(FHSYK and SPM share alot of techniques and methods) people coming into the system without a solid foundation have a hard time "getting it."
When I say GJFFK, I really am referring to the core technique taught in the form, rather than the form itself.

[Laukarbo]

imo after u learned the basics well u can learn any set,no matter in what order! talking bout hung kuen hand sets...

there was a discussion on this board many,many years ago about the 3 treasure sets of hung kuen are each a style by itself..or could be... I completely agree with that actually...or just using sap ying kuen which is like a highlight reel of the 3 treasures and adds the 5 elements...

[lkfmdc]

Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen has

1) all the basic footwork

2) all the basic fist strikes

3) tiger and crane movements (like, duh!)

4) basic palm

5) some basic kicking (some implied)

[TenTigers]

hmmmm....
you've got a point there....
sh1t, pretty soon you'll be saying that you can learn Biu Jee without learning Chum Kiu and Siu Lim Tau.....
or..
The Yang long form without first learning the 8, 24, 36...um, 37..

[sanjuro_ronin]

This made me remember that I don't have ANY video of the Sap Ying Kuen for my library.

Any suggestions?

[tungmojingjung]

Cerebus,

Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen to me is would be the one, it entails everything, I guess thats why Sigung Chiu Kau would say practice this set properly 1000 times, then we'll begin to see real Hung kuen. When looking closely it provides everything, internal aspect, animals, elements, footwork, bridge work, its all there, with the aide of a qualified sifu, that skill will open Hung kuen like a large japanese fan.

[TenTigers]

Cerebus,

Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen to me is would be the one, it entails everything, I guess thats why Sigung Chiu Kau would say practice this set properly 1000 times, then we'll begin to see real Hung kuen. When looking closely it provides everything, internal aspect, animals, elements, footwork, bridge work, its all there, with the aide of a qualified sifu, that skill will open Hung kuen like a large japanese fan.

or perhaps a large Chinese fan?

[TenTigers]

This made me remember that I don't have ANY video of the Sap Ying Kuen for my library.

Any suggestions?

Kwong Wing-Lam's dvd is excellent. His structure and form is impeccable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kwong Wing-Lam's dvd is excellent. His structure and form is impeccable.

Wing Lam's DVD are quite excellent, thanks for the advice.
I love my collection, it is a library of MA !

[tungmojingjung]

TT,

You are right, I stand corrected, a large chinese fan...