Another look at Wing Chun History/Mystery

[JPinAZ]

Just wanted to take another look at some of WC's history (and mystery) sparked from another thread.

Originally posted on recent thread:

Cho family lineage has been posted a few times by Hendrik already. Below is the Lineage as I have be told in Singapore and Poon Yee, China:

Yim Wing Chun
Leung Bak Sao
Cheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam)
Cho Dak Sing (CDS)

Hendrik would include Cho Shun, CDS's father, but he did not learn from his father but directly from Cheng Dan Kam. But because his father also learnt from Cheng Dan Kam then as tradition dictates a son and father can not be at the same level. Therefore when including the father in a "full" family tree CDS would be a level lower so it was explained to me.

Thank you for sharing this information. While not everyone believes the Yim Wing Chun legend, it is clear that WC has been around before the time of Wong Wah Bo and then clearly before Yik Kam as listed in the tree above (even if WWB isn't listed in this tree). Curious if you've heard of Leung Lan Kwai learning from Leung Bak So who in turn taught Wong Wah Bo?
Anyway, the reason I bring up WWB is because of the big differences I see between just about everyone that comes down from his teachings and those few lines that come from from Yik Kam.

Why is it all the lines that come down from Wong Wah Bo's teachings have 3 hand forms while his juniors wing chun (Yik Kam) only has one long SLT?

It has been said on this forum that Yik Kam (or his teacher) is the creator of Wing Chun with it's single SLT form and mixture of Omei and White Crane, and that it is the 'original' WCK coming from Omei-Crane. It would also be believed that this one SLT was then later split into SNT/CK/BJ as we have today (in both WWB descendants and several non-WWB lineages).
Also, how can most all other lines that draw down from Yim Wing Chun, or even Wong Wah Bo (Yik Kam's senior) already have 3 hand forms and none (or very little) of the strong Omei and White Crane signatures seen only in YK's 1 SLT today if it is the original?? Also, if it is true that YK's 'original' 1 slt was split into 3 forms, why is it still 1 from in YK WCK today?

This tells me that the 1 long SLT was YK's invention after training some WC, along with the mixing in of the omei/crane information. and that is why it is still 1 long form today as opposed to the traditional 3 the rest of the WC community has that traces their lineage past YK. (except for Gulo's point system)

[JPinAZ]

Also posted on another recent thread:

wong wah bo wing chun came long before yik kam slt. certainly yik kam wouldn't dare to call his mixed art as wing chun kune in front of wong wah bo and leung yee tai. it's up to yik kam to stand up for his own creation -' yik kam slt.'

both ching san and pin san are san sau wing chun, unlike snt/ck/bj. leung jan created two versions of gulo wck. (ching san and pin san), wong wah saam was a small guy and he couldn't use his gulo wck effectively against those big guys, therefore leung jan created another version of gulo pin san wck for wong wah saam.

Another good point. I give credit to YK for taking what WC he had and going out and furthering his training by learning Omei and Crane and mixing into his SLT form. And it is honorable that he called it Yik Kam's SLT and not 'WC'. This is most likely the case because of the mixed in Omei and Crane.

This is similar to what Bruce Lee did. We all know Bruce learn a few years of Wing Chun prior to creating his own art JKD. He didn't call it 'WC' because he knew it wasn't just WC (even if it's base started from there). It seems YK did the same when he created his YK SLT.

So back to my orignal thought, is it possible that YK also invented wing chun AFTER it had already been invented, but only with one long form instead of 3 and mixtures of other arts he studied? Of course not, we know this doesn't make a bit of sense. If so, where's the evidence?
We also know Yik Kam knew WWB (much his senior), and WWB already had his wing chun and 3 forms. So, the one long SLT with Omei and Crane couldn't have come first! If the 1 long SLT+Omei+WCrane was first, why do we not see that in any other line but the one coming from YK? And if the 1 form got split into 3, why is it still one from only in YK WC? Seems to me, it's the other way around. 3 got mixed into 1 with some other good arts and that's how it still is today.

(And this isn't even taking into account those lines that don't trace back thru WWB or red boats that also have the 3 traditional forms.)

[FongSung]

There are various versions of the origins of Wing Chun Kuen but no-one knows for sure as there are no written records as the legend was passed down verbally from master to student.

During the Qing Dynasty period Southern China was in turmoil and many rebellious groups hid there and concealed their true identities from the ruling Qing government. These rebellious groups where supporters of the old Ming Emperors and their descendants, and they sought to overthrow the Qing. Many of them were the survivors of the armies, trained in Shaolin Kung Ku, that were defeated by the Qing. These rebels formed Unions / Associations / Societies as a cover for there activities. One of these Associations was called Hung Fa Wei Gun. This group had a large northern element, including the Hakka people, it was these that started an Opera Troop so they could travel around the country without causing suspicion. They taught the southern people Opera and their Shaolin Kung Fu. After a time the Qing government found out about this and closed the Association down forcibly. It was many years before the people dared to start an Opera Troop again. They eventually did and called the Association “King Fa Wei Gun”. This became a centre for Opera and Martial Arts training. After a few years the King Fa Wei Gun purchased two Junks for the Opera troops to travel around the country.

It was during these times that the Wing Chun legends were staged. One such legend passed on to Ku Sifu is as follows.

During these times in the village of Portien, Fujian Provence there was an old man highly skilled in Shaolin Kung Fu who owned a Tau Fu shop. He had been taught in his younger days by Miu Shun, one of the Five Shaolin Elders. He had an only teenage daughter who was both beautiful and intelligent. His name was Yim Say and his daughter was Yim Wing Chun. Yim Say dotted on his daughter and had taught her all he could of his Kung Fu by the time she was a teenager.

Other than the main Shaolin temple in the mountains of Fujian there was another smaller temple called “Fat Sui Lam Sim Ying” and was occupied by Nun’s and Governed by Ng Mui. Ng Mui was also one of the Five Kung Fu elders from the main Shaolin temple was very much respected by all. Yim Yong Chun’s father and the Abbott Ng Mui were very familiar and knew each other well. He would take Yim Yong Chun to meet Ng Mui, his Sitai, on his visits to the temple. Ng Mui loved Yim Yong Chun very much and saw that she was very intelligent and quick to learn everything she taught her so she decided to take her as a disciple (Todai). She taught Yim Wing Chun advanced / high level Shaolin Kung Fu at the temple for 3 years. One day in the temple gardens Yim Wing Chun witnessed a fight between a Crane and a poisonous Snake. Using its beak and claws the crane defeated the snake. After this incident she modified the Crane’s attack actions and fused it with the Kung Fu she already knew to create a new fist method. Even though this method was short it utilised both hard and soft power, using small precise actions to use the opponents force against him, the fist changes were fast and often using softness to defeat hardness. When she invented this new method she kept it to herself.

Also at this time there was a Young man named *Leung Bak Sau who when he was younger had a foster father who also had four natural sons. The foster father was the Linage holder of Choy Family Kung Fu. Due to his good character and skill the foster father past on the title of linage holder to Leung Bak Sau before he past away. The real sons where not happy about this and caused trouble for him. Therefore Leung Bak Sau agreed to hand over the title to them. He then decided to move away to another village to become a school teacher. This village happened to be the village where Yim Wing Chun lived. One day Leung Bak Sau saw Yim Wing Chun practising her Kung Fu. Her method was odd and did not look effective so thinking that the way she was training looked silly, he teased and made fun of her. She was thin skinned and easily took offense. She wanted to challenge him so she asked her father and he gave his permission. Leung Bak Sau was soundly beaten by Yim Wing Chun. A romance ensued and they got married after which she taught him her Kung Fu. Two years after the marriage Yim Say passed away and Leung Bak Sau and Yim Wing Chun moved to a village in Guangdong.

In the olden days in china the opera was known as Ban Chung. Leung Bak Sau didn’t belong to the Ban Chung people but being an Opera lover as well as a Ming sympathizer he came into contact with a lot of the members of the Opera House people. He took 13 Students and out of all of them he took the four best fighters in the group to be his disciples. The four disciples were: Cheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam), Leung Lan Gai, Leung Tee Tai, Wong Wah Bo.

He did not have a name for his Kung Fu so when asked he named it Wing Chun in honour of his wife.

Leong Lan Gai moved to Sam Soi, it isn’t known if he took any disciples. Wong Wah Boe & Leung Yee Tai took a disciple called Leung Jan who became famous for his fighting skill in Fatsan. When Yik Kam returned to his home town of Poon Yee and taught the Cho family.

www.banchungchogawingchun.com

For the record "Wing Chun" passed down from Yik Kam has only four sets - SLT, Muk Yan Jong, Yan Yee (Bat Jam) Doe, Luk Dim Pun Gwan. Of course Cho family has many other sets of Kung Fu but the above are the core.

Yeun Kay San people still have a 3 section SLT...?
Chan Wah Shun passed down 13+ sets to his son -> grandson? go figure?

No mention of Ermei has been made to me by elders in Penang, Singapore and China nor when questioned have they any knowledge of any association. This is the research of Hendrik and I believe he said his sifu, Cho Hong Choi, also. Cho Hong Choi Sifu, known as the Kung Fu "King" in Penang at a time when triads and schools challenged & fought all the time sometimes fatally. As Hendrik knows our family Kung Fu the aim is to beat the emeny as swiftly and effectively as possible. He now seems to have chilled out in his older life and is researching and delving deeper into the art as he see's it and I think he as found what he is looking for from his posts. And the very best to him. It's not what he is saying that seems to an issue to everyone but how he say's it ;-) imho.

Wing Chun is Wing Chun it's how YOU choose apply it that is the difference, hard, soft, soft/hard, hard/soft, forceful, evading.....etc all depends on your attributes. If you have strength then your a fool if you don't use it, if you weaker then your a fool to test your strength against a stronger person and should use other tactic's, common sense really.

I hope this post answers some questions.

[FongSung]

Big differnce's based on what?
A statement that our SLT encompasses all the 3 forms of others.

Or on content?
Have you seen all the Cho Family lineages SLT in it's full or at all?

[Firehawk4]

Yuen Kay Sans Brother Yuen Chai Wan only taught 1 form Sui Lien Tao and no Bill Jee or Chum Kiu Forms Yuen Chai Wan taught Yui Choi and the Ethnic Chinese in Vietnam only as far as is Known the Sui Lien Tao form plus wooden dummy and the Knives form and Baat Sic Danda Bamboo Dummy. But as you said Yuen Kay San new all the basic 3 forms do you know if or if Yuen Chai Wan new the Chum Kui and Bill Jee Forms ? Also i herd some student of Leung Jan named Low Kwai only learned along Sui Lien Tao form do you know anything about this ?

[FongSung]

It's believed by a lot elders, from other lineages also, that originally wing chun had only one long fist set, Siu Lien Tao, which included all the movements of Siu Nim Tao & Chum Kiu & Biu Jee. If you are who I think you already know all his

I have been told that Yuen Chai Wan passed on Siu Lien Tao + Siu Lam forms + Hard & Soft Nei Gung, and it was his students that created the 3 forms for whatever reason. You are better off contacting the various schools yourself in Vietnam as many have websites these days. But they may be reluctant to open up even in face to face unless you have something similar to offer.

I am not a researcher and comparatively new to this TCMA.
Saying that Low Kwai's name is familiar I may look into it.

[Runlikehell]

I have been told that Yuen Chai Wan passed on Siu Lien Tao + Siu Lam forms + Hard & Soft Nei Gung, and it was his students that created the 3 forms for whatever reason. You are better off contacting the various schools yourself in Vietnam as many have websites these days. But they may be reluctant to open up even in face to face unless you have something similar to offer.

I heard that Yuen Chai Wan passed on Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee (as well as the weapons forms and dummy form) to Yiu Choi and the ethnic Chinese he taught in Vietnam and Cambodia. The other forms may have been added in by ethnic Vietnamese students. I've also heard that he passed on different curriculums in North and South Vietnam. Could be wrong though.

I got that info from here:
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...ietnamWingChun

There's also a detailed answer here, check "Huang Ti's" response.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0095621AAHl0Xp

I wonder if he passed any forms on to his son.

Saying that Low Kwai's name is familiar I may look into it.

If it helps, Lo Kwai has also been referred to as Chao Lo Kwai, and Chiu Yuk Kwai.

[horserider]

My name is Danny Chao and the Leung Jan student you speak of Chao Lo Kwai is my ancestor. To avoid some misinformation I will provide what short answer on what we preserve.

We practice 4 forms plus dummy ,pole and knife. The 3 forms as known plus one long form derived from the original long form taught by Wong Wah Bo.

In our passed down writings it is said Leung Yee Tai taught from shorter San Sik and Wong Wah Bo taught from one long form. Leung Jan learned from both. He worked with Wong Wah Bo to combine the teachings of his two Sifu. This resulted in the 3 forms as practiced today.

This is what we preserve but it does not mean it is correct . I wish not to argue with those that have a belief in something else.

[t_niehoff]

Very interesting. Thanks.

[Runlikehell]

I agree with T. Thanks for the post.

[Hendrik]

Thanks and appreciate for the excellent information!

[Hendrik]

In our passed down writings it is said Leung Yee Tai taught from shorter San Sik and Wong Wah Bo taught from one long form.

Leung Jan learned from both. He worked with Wong Wah Bo to combine the teachings of his two Sifu. This resulted in the 3 forms as practiced today.

Great answer to the core question.

why do we not see that in any other line but the one coming from YK? And if the 1 form got split into 3, why is it still one from only in YK WC? ....

(And this isn't even taking into account those lines that don't trace back thru WWB or red boats that also have the 3 traditional forms.)

Obviously YK WCK is not alone.

Now one got to ask, why is those different color flags WCK which surface in the 2000, who claim to be original WCK has 3 forms from Shao Lin at 1600's while LJ exit in 1850?

[RB93SAAT]

hendrik claims that yik kam's slt is the original wing chun originating from o-mei and crane. how can this be original wing chun when wong wah bo's wing chun already exsisted prior to yik kam? how can yik kam's wing chun be original when they themselve believe that their ancestor is yim wing chun, the creator of their wing chun? from this position is where I disagree that yik kam's slt is the original wing chun. here's an anology. bruce lee learned wing chun from yip man, and created JKD. but bruce lee never called his martial art original wing chun in front of ip man. in history, yik kam never addressed his self creation yik kam's slt 'excercises' (o-mei + crane) as original wing chun in front of wong wah bo and leung yee tai. how could yik kam make such claim if yim wing chun and wong wah bo already existed prior to yik kam?

the history of wing chun has always been muddy, some claim chi sim as the creator, some claim yim wing chun etc...some new version of wing chun which mixed with o-mei, crane, hung ga or ngo cho kun, later also come to make a lot noise about being the orginal wing chun. that is the most rediculous claim. that's like claiming the sun rises in the west. saying wing chun came from omei and crane knowing that wong wah bo's wing chun existed before yik kam contradicts known history. all of this evidence shows that wing chun history with any association to omei and crane is false and totally absurd.

[Hendrik]

hendrik claims that yik kam's slt is the original wing chun originating from o-mei and crane.

I have never make the claim that Yik Kam's SLT is the original.

the point is we know now both WWB and YK is doing ONE LONG FORM, not three form. That means in the Red Boat, it is true that One Long form was taught.



The thread of Wing Chun is a fusion of Snake and Crane is well known. Wing Chun with Emei /kwan Xi connection is also well know via YKS and Koo Lo lineage.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules....ery=miu%20shun



There is nothing new but the truth get closer and closer.


Sorry, it is not what you like to hear and see.

but you have NO CHANCE to twist it disregards how you trying to create some nonsense about me.

hahaha, I rest my case here because I am sooooo happy. Now it is up to you guys to proof your own stuffs. Not my problem. I am done with these. hahaha

[LoneTiger108]

I just wanted to say how interesting this particular thread is becoming as I'm seeing more 'new' members (?) who have clear information about their Wing Chun origins that actually sound very similar to the Lee Shing family I belong to.

I especially remember chatting with my Sifu and trying to piece together Lee Shings movements before he came to the UK and Vietnam and Malaysia were mentioned. Its interesting to me because back then our art was referred to as Gok Seut, or National Art, not the Wushu we all hear of today. Lee Shing apparently travelled to these locations during his own research days and its fascinating to hear of four forms and the fusion of Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tais art through Leung Jan. This makes sense and links to the DNT form Lee Shing taught his closest students.

Its also very nice to hear Yiu Chois name here, as he too was close to Lee Shing and I believe even Wai Po Tang had learnt from him too, another front runner in the Wing Chun craziness of the eighties in the UK!

A good little thread imho full of good first-hand information, for once...