Another look at Wing Chun History/Mystery

[LoneTiger108]

It is not about "another view" it is one needs to present something which is making sense. instead of just "another view".

And to present something which is making sense needs to have a clear understanding one what is going on, instead of presenting goship news paper information or something out of the blue.

Firstly, what I presented isn't from gossip in a newspaper. It's folklore stories that have been passed to me verbally, like 99.9% of all other students here that's what I have to go on and research further.

My suggestion for you is to verify the likely within the TCMA history and also the TCMA signature possibilities on the above. It is not an every put their 5 cents deal. It is does one says has any possibilities issue.

If you want to clarify the history of the Red Boats you will have major issues as again it's all based on verbal transmissions. I suggest you look into Canton Opera as it's a very good starting point.

No one speculate, no one try to use the elders like Fong Chun. No need to prove a point. Not even needed to talking of Yik Kam, in fact, No one talking Yik Kam.

senior Fung Chun is performing a signature of Emei 12 Zhuang that is the reality and fact.

Yes it is all speculation imho. Stories from Fung Chun and how he performs his forms with an emei signature is all speculation because he has not said that himself. Or are yuo saying that he, the eldest descendant of Wing Chun today, does not know that he is doing Emei?

That's YOUR fact Hendrik. Not his. He is just rotating his huensau seed, as most of us elder families do. In fact, Mak Yiu Mings SLT from Cheung Bo must also be emei according to you then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4O3KnlSlCY

But it isn't. It is simply the Cheung Bo salutation and very common in the Fatsan Wing Chun from Chiu Wan. FWIW They also have the same opening as Lee Shing family, albeit slightly hidden or minimized.

In other families they call this signature Sap Jee Sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQPL...eature=related

The Fact is senior Fung Chun is perfomring a signature of Emei 12 zhuang, while Fung's WCK is a direct teaching of Leong Jan. and Between Leong and him is only one generation. KooLo is a village which is known for conservatively preserve Leong Jan's WCK.

We talk evidents instead of speculation.

And all evidence suggests that Leung Jan was 70 years old when he started teaching the Kulo methods we see today. 70 years old!! Retired and only capable of teaching a point method of sansau techniques. ALL great stuff though and not to be forgotten, but really, where do you think he taught as much as he could?? It reminds me of young students attempting to copy Ip Mans videos. Young men training like old men. Wing Chun is not supposed to be like that imo.

FWIW I totally understand where you're coming from Hendrik and I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge of the 12 Zhuang of Emei and your evidence (if we can call it that) of its connection to Wing Chun. The thing is, others have other evidence. Other stories, just as you do, that point the finger in different directions than you.

Everything is worth researching IMHO but we must also spend time training so we can familiarize ourselves with eachother. This I'm afraid is where all exchange stops. We don't train together. We don't meet eachother.

I only hope this year doesn't become another 'bash eachother' period in Wing Chuns history, because that is what we're doing here. We're creating history with every post we make and I for one would like to see everyone make an effort to get along.

Man, I would even like to get out at some point and meet up with as many of you as I can!! But I'm like a Vampire. I only come into your house if I'm invited

[Hendrik]

He is just rotating his huensau seed, as most of us elder families do.

In fact, Mak Yiu Mings SLT from Cheung Bo must also be emei according to you then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4O3KnlSlCY

But it isn't.

It is simply the Cheung Bo salutation and very common in the Fatsan Wing Chun from Chiu Wan.



In other families they call this signature Sap Jee Sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQPL...eature=related

Great, if it is not emei ,

the fact is some one is doing an Emei signature , which use for finger Jin conditioning as in emei.

and that doesnt have to according to me but they have done it.
any explaination where is those signature is from?

why is it the Emei signature is practiced in WCK and use for Finger conditioning?

and if those signature is not Emei signature where that comes from? which style?

Saying it is or it isnt emei , doesnt mean anything in reality of existance but your opinion which is ok with me.






For some other WCner,

compare your clips with emei 12 zhuang's practice, Emei a 800 years old art of TCMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Starting 4.37


for them,
your example in the clips has just further confirm the influence of Emei in WCK is much broader then most think.

Now tell us, why and where is this DNA/signature which appear in different WCK lineages comes from in the past 400 years of TCMA?

WCK is caugt solidly using Emei's finger training technology here.



again, it is not about winning an arguement or whose lineage is better,

it is about HOW a move done properly to activate the power and the significant behind it which is I am interested in.
That is my botton line in the history research as I repeatly tell the world which you probably not comprehend.




Is this move from Shao lin Hung Gar's Hung Hei Goon as you suggested? May be you are right, it is Hung Hei Goon's signature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

See it for yourself.

[LoneTiger108]

your example in the clip has just further confirm the influence of Emei in WCK is much broader then most think.

Now tell us, where is this signature which appear in different WCK lineages comes from in the past 400 years of TCMA?

That's one for Chiu Wans family I think as it's his students that are doing that set specifically. And we used to have a few guys on here from that neck of the woods but I aint seen them post in a while.

They will be able to explain what the set is and maybe even where it comes from much better than me (or you!) As I've said, my understanding is very simple. It's an expression of huensau. I actually do similar movments at the start of my Chum Kiu and Biu Jee forms, but they become much much faster and more powerful looking using the seed and energies I am familiar with. These sets are never shown beyond a simple taigik understanding, which is a shame.

As I've also said, I'm not interested in who says they have an original anyhthing because I don't believe we will ever know the truth behind our ancestral heritage. You will 'feel' if what you do makes sense. If its natural. If you blossom year after year. If you yourself feel that youthfulness inside you.

That's all we should all aim for imho. Just train well and be happy for 2011 Hendrik and maybe we will be able to move forwards instead of backwards to the days of bickering and insults.

[LoneTiger108]

Is this move from Shao lin Hung Gar's Hung Hei Goon as you suggested? May be you are right, it is Hung Hei Goon's signature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

See it for yourself.

Great clip by the way!!

This is from Tid Kiu Sam though (real name Leung Gwan), not Hung Hei Goon.

http://www.hungkuen.net/masters-tidkiusam.htm

I'm glad you find my Hung Gar connection to Wing Chun interesting. But as I've suggested, this does need some more serious research too. I was hoping that Robert may have some inside knowledge here, as he practised Hung Kuen didn't he? I haven't, but I have a lot of respect for the pratitioners I have met here in the UK amd HK.

[Hendrik]

That's one for Chiu Wans family I think as it's his students that are doing that set specifically. And we used to have a few guys on here from that neck of the woods but I aint seen them post in a while.

They will be able to explain what the set is and maybe even where it comes from much better than me (or you!) As I've said, my understanding is very simple. It's an expression of huensau. I actually do similar movments at the start of my Chum Kiu and Biu Jee forms, but they become much much faster and more powerful looking using the seed and energies I am familiar with. These sets are never shown beyond a simple taigik understanding, which is a shame.

As I've also said, I'm not interested in who says they have an original anyhthing because I don't believe we will ever know the truth behind our ancestral heritage. You will 'feel' if what you do makes sense. If its natural. If you blossom year after year. If you yourself feel that youthfulness inside you.

That's all we should all aim for imho. Just train well and be happy for 2011 Hendrik and maybe we will be able to move forwards instead of backwards to the days of bickering and insults.

There is nothing to do with who has original anything . It got to do of where those Signature is from. it got to comes from somewhere.

From, Shao lin Hung Gar as you suggest Jee Shim and Hung Hei Gun? Emei 12 Zhuang? Ngo Cho KUen? ..... all ideas are fine with me, let's look at what is the most likely from every angle.

1-1-11, the can of snake is opened. that is what has happen via your clips. Thanks!

[Hendrik]

Great clip by the way!!

This is from Tid Kiu Sam though (real name Leung Gwan), not Hung Hei Goon.

http://www.hungkuen.net/masters-tidkiusam.htm

I'm glad you find my Hung Gar connection to Wing Chun interesting. But as I've suggested, this does need some more serious research too. I was hoping that Robert may have some inside knowledge here, as he practised Hung Kuen didn't he? I haven't, but I have a lot of respect for the pratitioners I have met here in the UK amd HK.

Great, keep the research going. Open it up and see which fits. I am supporting it 100 percent.

[KPM]

Hey JP:

----I agologize if I have "assumed too much about your reading skills." But I can only go by what you wrote in the post I was responding to.

---You wrote that Hendrik was the ONLY person that supported his theory. I pointed out that I had posted previously in this same thread saying I agreed with the basic premise. I guess you chose to ignore that so that you could attack Hendrik, rather than missing it?

You wrote:
There you go 'ass'uming to know what I missed again...No sh!t things change.
Of course there are common origins! Who the hell said otherwise?

---You were the one that asked in your previous post: "If all WC came from White Crane/Emei as we see them today, why are they so vastly different from WC?" You wrote "AS WE SEE THEM TODAY." I pointed out that what we were talking about was a common ancestor, not what we see today. So who's reading skills are in question?


FWIW, we can't compare any arts 'as they were a long time ago' because really, no one really knows what they were back then

---We are talking about THEORY of historical origins. So what else do we have to go on? Anthropologists do this all the time when looking for connections and common origins for cultural groups. It is a valid way of constructing theories of historical origins. The use of Occam's Razor plans a large part. But I'm sure you caught that in my prior posts! You have to go with what seems the most plausible from the limited resources or evidence on hand.



The only thing that can be compared are the arts as they are today.

---Exactly. The same way in which Anthropologists look at cultures that exist today and what more recent history is known about them. This is part of how Anthropologists have constructed a theory of an Indo-European group being the origin of several seemingly unrelated modern cultures.


How do you know how much White Crane has evolved? You don't. Guessing what they all might have looked like 200 years ago, or assuming that they even evolved to such sever degree that they don't look anything like they did in 1850 is a waste of time. Why? no proof - It's all guessing.

---That's why is called a THEORY.



But that is exactly what Hendrik does time and again. He even goes as far to say that WCK today has lost a whole bunch of 'stuffs' and that he is able to reconstruct it from old text. Don't you see how silly this is?

---I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, Hendrik has posited what he sees as "missing pieces" in most WCK based upon what he has seen his teacher do compared to what others do, as well as what he has seen in some other mainland styles of WCK. I'm not saying I agree with his findings. But his motivation is more than just reading something in old texts, and is not quite as silly as you make it out to be.


But who can guess what the 'real WCK' looked like 200 years ago? No one.

----You're wrong. All WCK shares common elements. Some lineages have more elements in common than others. These common elements came from a common source. By looking at these "high percentage" elements and these elements that make all WCK fit the definition of actual "Wing Chun", we can have a pretty good idea of what that original root method looked like. Again, this is a common line of research in Anthropology.



Hey, I've got an idea - White Crane originally came from WCK and that's why they look the same! Can you prove me wrong?

---No. But can you prove us wrong? Most WCK lineages share an origin myth that says that WCK came about after the founder witnessed a fight between an snake and a crane. Do you know of any White Crane origination myths that say it came from Wing Chun? Again, in constructing theories we have to go with Occam's Razor. What seems more plausible?



Because he has some theories doesn't make them 'fact', regardless who might agree with him.

---But wait! You said previously that NO ONE agreed with him! That's a little different!



The only issue I have is when some people come here and pretend they have some inside knowledge that something is vastly missing in all of today's wing chun, and that only they have the answers or keys for unlocking those missing secrets. Unless you also believe this to be true?

---No, I don't believe that to be true. And I agree with your last statement to some extent. So challenge Hendrik on those points! Make him back up the "factual" statements that he seems to make that go beyond the bounds of "theory." Outline your own theory and evidence that you feel is more plausible. Don't just completely ignore someone else (me) who has made an effort to show that the basic theory has some foundation....whether you agree with the theory or not.

[KPM]

once again, why don't you answer these questions here?

why did yik kam go out to search other arts in order to fill in the missing pieces of his wing chun?
where and who did yik kam learn his o-mei from?
where and who did yik kam learn his crane from?
where and who did yik kam learn his snake from?

.

Wow! You guys seem really dense! How many times does one have to state something in a single thread before it seeks in? Hendrik never said that Yik Kam WCK was the original ancestoral WCK! Yik Kam didn't learn o-mei, crane, or snake. He learned WCK! The theory is that the WCK he learned had been heavily influenced by, if not derived from, those other arts. Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK. WCK did not spring forth from a vacuum! Its developers were all experienced martial artists. Who those original developers were is not clear. The theory is simply looking at what the likely foundational methods may have been.

[Hendrik]

Wow! You guys seem really dense! How many times does one have to state something in a single thread before it seeks in? Hendrik never said that Yik Kam WCK was the original ancestoral WCK! Yik Kam didn't learn o-mei, crane, or snake. He learned WCK! The theory is that the WCK he learned had been heavily influenced by, if not derived from, those other arts. Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK. WCK did not spring forth from a vacuum! Its developers were all experienced martial artists. Who those original developers were is not clear. The theory is simply looking at what the likely foundational methods may have been.

Yup. That is correct.

and knowing those foundatonal methods could benifit us greatly to know what result is possible while practicing it especially while doing the sets.



For example, Pak by definition is achived a result similar to "fire craker" a localization blast to dissolve or cancel or disarm the resistance. Pak is not a bunker missile which penetrate deep down to 100 feet. according to the ancient definition.

So, while doing pak the entire body is not behind it because it is no need to and not efficient since Pak is a "clearing" tool. and the nature of the power type become ackward with lot of power behind it. Similar to slaping some one's cheek with the whole body swinging is not a slap any more or causing one's body to twise more then neccesary, also, one doesnt need to power a fire craker with neuclear core and have a 0.001 % conversion efficientcy which is a waste of energy.

In most case, the Bunker missile is used simulatiously with the Pak to furthr rupture the structure or drive through the body, the entire body thus is behind this Bunker missile then the Pak. Pak's explosion doesnt move forward but at spot. thus, if the entire body is behind it, the penetration will only happen at the blast spot/location. the entire body is behind the bunker missile which needs to do penetration.

Not knowing this and thinking use Pak with entire body is not accord to ancient definition of the tool. like using a sweeper as hammer. That is not accord with WCK. However, using a Sweeper as lead or in the same time with the Hammer is a great combination and it is no longer just a pure Pak.


Why to know this is important? because it effect the effectiveness, efficiency and also the structure of one, such as which leg is power the pak... . one needs to know what is the tool is and what is it for. Sure, after that one could evolve. It is just the story of Momentum handling -- what are they and how to be effective and efficient.

[Hendrik]

---I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, Hendrik has posited what he sees as "missing pieces" in most WCK based upon what he has seen his teacher do compared to what others do, as well as what he has seen in some other mainland styles of WCK. I'm not saying I agree with his findings. But his motivation is more than just reading something in old texts, and is not quite as silly as you make it out to be.

Just to be rational, one can check the five finger tracing taiji or the emei signature of Fung Chun in all the present Cho family SLT sets in the youtube and there is no such signature there.

Why? IMHHHHO, because in the evolution of past 160 years, things get lost via carelessness. ir unaware of.. changes....etc. human stuffs.

So here is a case where something other old lineages are still preserving but the general Cho family SLT is missing or they forgotten where is that move is or get fuzzy about it. So, yes, Even the Cho family could have missing components.

Thus, it is not about claiming Yik Kam lineage have it all but a search of what is it there possible for General WCK. There is no such thing as KNOW IT ALL.


So, why do I make such a big fuzz on this? because this five finger tracing taiji is the closing and biujee is the opening of Qi flow medirians and one needs both to be a holistic balance practice. and when one is missing then there is an issue.

Also, there is a purpose why the wraping of finger started with the pinky and continuous on sequence, instead of just make a fist randomly. Take a look, how other art doesnt pay this much attention to these details.

the emei kuen kuit said

屈指描太极, bending the finger to trace the taiji circle
小指居先次第行, pinky is the lead and other fingers go with sequece.


It is in such a details and layer and layers of inspection one needs to observe when it comes with the details of SLT or WCK -- missed an inch off a thousand miles.

[hunt1]

[

QUOTE=RB93SAAT;1070139]pao fa lien wing chun this lineage is said to have its roots in the shaolin monastery and was taught by a buddhist monk whose nickname was Big East Wind (大东风). on leaving the shaolin monastery Dai Dung Fung (大东风)travelled south to canton. the buddhist monk was a member of a secret society whose aims were to overthrow the Ching Government.

RB93Saat. This story of Pao fa Lien origin is highly dubious and comes from Mok Poi On.

The last 2 living direct students of Pao Fa Lien Gwok Gai and Gwok Siu. ( I belive Gwok Gai died in the last few years). They said they never heard this story from their teacher Pao Fa Lien. That to their knowledge their wing chun came from the same source as all other wing chun.

[KPM]

[

A general question. Why the hostility to Hendrik's theory of wing chun origins? Does anyone believe wing chun just appeared one day as a complete ready to go system? Some one or group of someones developed the system drawing upon their knowledge of martial arts as source material.

Almost all Wing Chun has the crane and snake story as an origin myth. It is clear white crane kung fu influenced the development of several arts from SPM to karate. To say that is the crane and Emei snake is the snake side doesn't seem far fetched.

More importantly does it really matter or change anything in what you do? Right or wrong Hendriks origin theory is at least as strong if not stronger than any others that have been put out. Put something else out or ignore it completely its just a mental exercise no need to get bent out of shape or feel threatened.

Thank you for your response! I'm glad to see someone else here that can use logical reasoning and common sense!

[Hendrik]

I like to share openly technically. Do I have shortcoming, sure lots of them, and not like to defend them but improve.

One thing sometimes people dont understand is that I avoid to answer some technical questions and tell other to Baisi. The facts are lots of things needs lots of time and repeatable drill to know what it is. it is better to learn from those who has experience to coach one.

As the so called Snake engine, The Sup jee Sau above is the snake engine. look how close it is to the Siu Jee Zhuang of Emei 12 Zhuang Russell did in his clip.

So, WCK has it there embeded.



So, what is these WCK Sap Jee Sau stuffs is good for in this New Age? Sup Jee Sau practice is an excellent practice for us modern people who use computer and sitting in the cubicle.

Those who has shoulder, arm wrist, finger problem could be corrected if one practice three times a day and each time 3 sets or more. Try it and see for yourself. do it without using any force, just use enough force to smoothly move the arm and fingers with very loose muscle that it feels like the whole arm and shoulder is "floating" in the air. Yes, That lite. when one feel heavy that is the part one tense up. Lite is an important key to activate the snake engine. Tensing or dynamic tension will not activate the snake engine.

So, it must be practiced with "no" effort at all. and after a day or two see how magic surface. But if one do it with tension, the magic will not surface. because this is not a physical exercise but more.... That is the levitation I am talking , it is loose and exanding. it is not loose and sinking where lots of people mistaken via the misunderstood on rooting and sinking. Loose and sinking is not a nuetra state it is an application state. Nuetra state needs to be in loose and exanding. the whole SLT has to be based in this state and then call out different application state. instead of sitting in the loose and sinking application state. That wont work.

Making use of the Sap Jee Sau or SLT this way daily in one's office cubicle is much much pratical and benificial then go fighting.





On the other hand, I am not talking Figthing. Why? because I have seen some Kuit which perscribe different types of very damaging Jin.

IE: Jin which blown the back where the strike hit in the front of the body. and ...etc.

Look, these stuff are not macho stuffs. One step wrong or accident no one knows how to undo it. the consequence is huge. I am not going to promote those stuffs for fun play as some one take sparing is. When one sometimes is naive enough to want to test out things like that knowing not its consequence.


general WCK, has been modified after 1850, IMHO, because those type of Jin got remove from the Set. if one know where they are and comparing the old and new sets structure of Leong Jan's derive WCK, IMHO.

I dont know why Leong Jan remove those things but my common sense is he must knows something is not for fun and those stuffs are very damaging.

In addition, Also, my late sifu GM CHC eventhough was very famous for Kong Sao has warn me on the consequence of fighting cause body damage.

Thus, I choose not to go to those fighting topic.


Great power comes with lots of responsibility, and sometimes we need to give up the ego to do what is right. IMHO

[Wayfaring]

So, what is these WCK Sap Jee Sau stuffs is good for in this New Age? Sup Jee Sau practice is an excellent practice for us modern people who use computer and sitting in the cubicle.
IMHO

So to sum up - in your opinion, WCK is effective in the New Age to help you train to be a keyboard warrior?

Beautiful.

[t_niehoff]

I dont know why Leong Jan remove those things but my common sense is he must knows something is not for fun and those stuffs are very damaging.

Maybe, just maybe, Leung Jan did what all fighters do, hack away at the inessentials.