Another look at Wing Chun History/Mystery

[t_niehoff]

Wow! You guys seem really dense! How many times does one have to state something in a single thread before it seeks in? Hendrik never said that Yik Kam WCK was the original ancestoral WCK! Yik Kam didn't learn o-mei, crane, or snake. He learned WCK! The theory is that the WCK he learned had been heavily influenced by, if not derived from, those other arts. Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK.

Yes, I am aware of Hendrik's theory -- and as I have said, I think it is interesting. But, it is not FACT as he keeps portraying it.

WCK did not spring forth from a vacuum!

True.

Its developers were all experienced martial artists. Who those original developers were is not clear. The theory is simply looking at what the likely foundational methods may have been.

Above, you wrote that "Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK." My view is that this didn't occur intentionally, as some planned invention of some new art. I don't think arts ever develop that way -- or can. I think it was unstructured, unplanned, and organic, growing out of their fighting. And they may have taken various aspects from various curriculum to teach their new method.

[Hendrik]

My view is that this didn't occur intentionally, as some planned invention of some new art.

I don't think arts ever develop that way -- or can.

I think it was unstructured, unplanned, and organic, growing out of their fighting.

1, Human are strongly influence by their environment and their past training.

2, Check into the patent office to see the so called invention: how many revolution within per 10000 evolution. That is the reality.

3, When a person who was train with the Snake art and inspire by the White crane to created a new art, the prio-art influence is there big time.

4, what is the chance for one to accidentaly decide to wrap their finger into a fist and starts with the pinky? and what is the chance lineages of older WCK branches practicing the same move of wraping finger into a fist starting with the pinky and practice that for past 150 years?


Go and scan ALL the So called Shao lin art for past 1000 years, (yes, one thousand years ) and see which Shao LIn art wrap their fingers to make fist that way?


5, In the Legend, MIu Shun had admit what he taught Yim Yee or Yim WC's father is not the White Crane but a fusion of White crane and his own art. Eventhough he did not reveal the name of the art he is practicing.



For me, there is no accident and human are much subject to influence then just Grow into something.

[tigershorty]

hendrik, i'm sorry but...maybe you should read this and understand why some people aren't following your verbose posts.

http://www.iusb.edu/~libg/pdf/critical-reading.pdf

[Hendrik]

hendrik, i'm sorry but...maybe you should read this and understand why some people aren't following your verbose posts.

http://www.iusb.edu/~libg/pdf/critical-reading.pdf

Thank you!

and that is fine with whether some people follow or not.

[KPM]

Above, you wrote that "Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK." My view is that this didn't occur intentionally, as some planned invention of some new art. I don't think arts ever develop that way -- or can. I think it was unstructured, unplanned, and organic, growing out of their fighting. And they may have taken various aspects from various curriculum to teach their new method.

That could very well be true! I have no problem with that idea. Maybe one of them had learned Crane and found some short-comings in his knowledge when he tried to fight with it. So he made changes. Maybe he added some "snake" components and found it more workable. It does seem very possible that no one person set out purposefully to develop a new fighting style that would be called "Wing Chun." Then again, Bruce Lee found short-comings in his "foundation art" and set out to explore other methods that could make up for those short-comings. I guess one could argue whether his goal was to create a new "style", but I think it was. Why would martial artists 150 years ago be any different?

[tigershorty]

he also went back and said he should have never created JKD (to wong shun leung). there are always 'shortcomings' to any non-exact science (like fighting)

maybes really don't cut it.

[Hendrik]

Whatever the reasons, that is ok.

The bottom line for me is via the ancestor's legend we have identify something very likely to be the elements.

And, using those elements, one could take a closer look at the core of the art.

[Eric_H]

Hey Hendrik,

-William Cheung says in his Siu Nim Tao book that Yip Man's WC is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Pan Nam considered WC to be a mixture of shaolin and wudang arts.
-Pao Fa Lien is supposedly descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Richard Lowenhagen, a wing chun researcher who has written a number of articles and a book on Wing Chun says it is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-The Vietnamese branches of WC all claim to be a shaolin descendant.
-The VTM has written articles that Wing Chun comes from Shaolin.
-Ng Mui - by legend was supposedly a Shaolin monk/priestess.

From all "Legitimate" WC we can see that there is a Shaolin tie-in. Then there's the fact that WC has:

- Butterfly swords - a notably Shaolin weapon
- Wooden Dummy, a common feature of Shaolin descended martial arts
- Ties to Buddhism, a common hallmark of Shaolin descended martial arts.

That's straight up evidence. How come all the other branches don't use o-mei exercises except for Yik Kam? How come Yik Kam only called his art Siu Lin Tao and not WCK?

Yik Kam's kung fu stands on its own (for Yik Kam only) as WCK basics + outside influences. It's what worked for him (likely because of his small size/weaker frame) but it is largely outside the "WCK curriculum" (T's term).

Is this horse dead yet, or do you still feel the need to hit it more?

[Hendrik]

If you like to believe what you post, that is fine with me. I am open with anyone like to believe anything.


For me, my botton line of WCK history research is simply Cracking the Operation Code of WCK's technology for myself. and I have completed the task.

I share with the world what I have found and what could be the result. As who likes it who dont who love it who against it that is fine with me, That is not my concern from the Cracking technology code stand point. It doesnt matter.


As I said in the previous post, I am ok with and respect every one's choice. For my mission is completed and I am free. If others who like the path I have taken and need my further sharing that is fine with me, otherwise, it is also fine with me.

Hey Hendrik,

-William Cheung says in his Siu Nim Tao book that Yip Man's WC is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Pan Nam considered WC to be a mixture of shaolin and wudang arts.
-Pao Fa Lien is supposedly descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Richard Lowenhagen, a wing chun researcher who has written a number of articles and a book on Wing Chun says it is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-The Vietnamese branches of WC all claim to be a shaolin descendant.
-The VTM has written articles that Wing Chun comes from Shaolin.
-Ng Mui - by legend was supposedly a Shaolin monk/priestess.

From all "Legitimate" WC we can see that there is a Shaolin tie-in. Then there's the fact that WC has:

- Butterfly swords - a notably Shaolin weapon
- Wooden Dummy, a common feature of Shaolin descended martial arts
- Ties to Buddhism, a common hallmark of Shaolin descended martial arts.

That's straight up evidence.



How come all the other branches don't use o-mei exercises except for Yik Kam? How come Yik Kam only called his art Siu Lin Tao and not WCK?

Yik Kam's kung fu stands on its own (for Yik Kam only) as WCK basics + outside influences. It's what worked for him (likely because of his small size/weaker frame) but it is largely outside the "WCK curriculum" (T's term).

Is this horse dead yet, or do you still feel the need to hit it more?

[tigershorty]

you do understand, tho...that when you say you've "cracked the operation code"

that it:

A) means nothing. you haven't clearly defined operation code.

B) you can't just say that without any proof (even Eric_H's "evidence" is circumstantial)
I believe I read that you don't even fight with your wing chun, making it virtually impossible to prove.

C) people will question why you say you have the answer, if you're unwillingly to actually discuss it without any actual detail or sensibly. If you teach wing chun for profit, it just comes off as a marketing tactic.

[Hendrik]

I am not here to prove anything.
I have shared the possibilities path to ancient advance WCK free.

All the details are presented in front of one's eyes if one has the depth to know what it is.
Those who is interested and has the background will do their search. And I leave it to them to find out for themselve the treasure.

you do understand, tho...that when you say you've "cracked the operation code"

that it:

A) means nothing. you haven't clearly defined operation code.

B) you can't just say that without any proof (even Eric_H's "evidence" is circumstantial)
I believe I read that you don't even fight with your wing chun, making it virtually impossible to prove.

C) people will question why you say you have the answer, if you're unwillingly to actually discuss it without any actual detail or sensibly. If you teach wing chun for profit, it just comes off as a marketing tactic.

[tigershorty]

I am not here to prove anything.
I have shared the possibilities path to ancient advance WCK free.

All the details are presented in front of one's eyes if one has the depth to know what it is.
Those who is interested and has the background will do their search. And I leave it to them to find out for themselve the treasure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

[Hendrik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch

Hahaha, I sell no product, I make no money, no school need to join, no T-shirt needs to buy,
and I even propose to all of you here that dont trust what I have post.

Do your own research and see for yourself what is the out come.

[RB93SAAT]

hendrik, you can't back up your rediculous claim such as 'wing chun came from o-mei and crane.' most people know this fact, dai dung fung, yim wing chun, wong wah bo and leung yee tai and others all came before yik kam, so, from where and who and how could you replace yik kam story to the real history of wing chun coiming from dai dung fung and william cheung?

Yim Wing Chun:
SNT, CK, BJ

Dai Dung Fung:
SNT, CK, BJ

Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun:
SNT, CK, BJ

Wong Wah Bo
SNT, CK, BJ

Leung Yee Tai:
SNT, CK, BJ

Leung Jan:
SNT, CK, BJ (foshan version)
Ching San San Sau (guloo version)
Pin San San Sau (guloo version)

Yik Kam:
SLT (incomplete wc + o-mei + crane)

Bruce Lee:
JKD (ip man wc + mma)

why did yik kam go out to search other arts in order to fill in the missing pieces of his wing chun?
where and who did yik kam learn his o-mei from?
where and who did yik kam learn his crane from?
where and who did yik kam learn his snake from?

hendrik, i'm stilling waiting for your answers.

[RB93SAAT]

Hahaha, I sell no product, I make no money, no school need to join, no T-shirt needs to buy,
and I even propose to all of you here that dont trust what I have post.

hendrik, for you...it's all about attention seeking!