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Thread: Zombie Threads of Old!

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Thesz beat Gotch in a pro match that turned into a shoot. He submitted him with a double wristlock. The only pro match on record of Thesz actually finishing with that hold.
    You know that (1) that was a fake pro wrestling match and (2) why it ended that way is very well known, ie that Thesz was injured and they had to end it quickly

    surely as a big catch wrestling fan you know KFABE?
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    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Heroô
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    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
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    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  2. #17
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    Hang on you just listed Takadaís credentials, now you are saying they are worthless?

    And didnít it occur to you that (as many of us have been saying all long) Sak and Barnett could be great fighters what ever art they studied, them winning does not mean catch is great (seeing as Barnettís main coach was also BJJ blackbelt and Sak is a judo and wrestler trained fighter

    Unless of course what you are saying is that all victories are victories for catch and all loses are because the individual is rubbish?

    Its pretty simple wouldnít you agree, For CACC to prove itself superior it has to produce countless champions at various weights, just like BJJ has done, in both grappling and MMA, fighters who are predominantly CACC grapplers, not high school wrestlers who have also studied BJJ, wuldnt you agree thatís a fair test?

    You also say there are only a few people teaching it legitimately, this was the same argument you used 5 years ago, donít you think if the art was that superior people would have flocked to the few coaches who can teach it, learned it and in those 5 years spread the art much further than it has spread? The fact this has NOT happened speaks volumes as to its actual worth

    Note I am not a BJJ nutrider (despite what you might think) I train and have competed no gi for years, but even there BJJ dominates, there is a reason for this and a reason that even here in the UK there are only a handful of catch clubs, most guys learned BJJ and use that no gi, they chose to do this rather than visit catch schools to learn, even when BJJ blackbelts were rarer than gold dust here in the UK, hell when BJJ purple belts couldnít be found for love nor money, that again should tell you something

  3. #18
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    Um, UWC, Lancashire Wrestling IS catch as catch can. Devonshire involved the use of a jacket and wooden shoes and kicking. Cornish used a jacket. Irish used the collar and elbow grip as the starting position. Then you have backhold styles, etc.

    But Lancashire was in substance and style referred to as "Catch as catch can," because it did not begin with a starting hold and no particular holds were forbidden, so you "caught" the opponent as you could.

    Any other standpoint is pure revisionism. I learned this in HS wrestling, and it's pretty much available all over.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

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  4. #19
    If you're saying that Lanchashire catch is the ONLY catch wrestling, that's completely false. If you're saying that Lanchasire catch - along with the catch that was developed in other places, such as the American midwest - constitutes the whole of catch...then you've got it.

    There are dozens of great catch wrestlers from the late 1800's/early 1900'S that trace their catch to places other than Lanchashire County, England.

    Here's just a few names of some of the best of them:

    Martin (Farmer) Burns
    Frank Gotch
    John Pesek
    Earl Caddock
    Tom Jenkins
    Ed (Strangler) Lewis
    Lou Thesz
    Ad Santell
    George Tragos
    Joe Stecher
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 01-04-2011 at 03:07 PM.

  5. #20
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    I won't quibble. It's not important enough. Suffice it to say that I think the role of lancashire wrestling in catch was a starring one.

    As for the people you just mentioned - how many are dead, and how many are alive, and how many are training successful grapplers who compete in no-gi formats?
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    And didnít it occur to you that (as many of us have been saying all long) Sak and Barnett could be great fighters what ever art they studied,
    would you say that applies to every fighter then?

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    would you say that applies to every fighter then?
    Nope........ if a style can only point to one or two of its people actually excelling in combat sports then i think we have to look at whether its the style or the man, on the other hand if a style produces world champ after world champ, and nearly every champion trains it extensively then i'd argue the style has something special to offer

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster View Post
    I won't quibble. It's not important enough. Suffice it to say that I think the role of lancashire wrestling in catch was a starring one.

    As for the people you just mentioned - how many are dead, and how many are alive, and how many are training successful grapplers who compete in no-gi formats?
    maybe victors point was that although catch might have started in lanchashire its spread and changed so much over the years that its a different animal now and as such whilst it shares its name now it doesnt really have any right to claim any of its successes in later years

    Kind of like my point about catch not being able to nutride the coat tails of freestyle

  9. #24
    Did you hear that, Dave (lkfmdc)....all those the catch guys from the American midwest back in the day owe it all to Lancaschire!!!

    They didn't come up with anything on their own.

    Ha!
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 01-05-2011 at 03:15 PM.

  10. #25
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    Victor, can you give me a list of the current cacc tournaments?

    Sub-grappling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Free Style, Folk Style, Greco and even Sumo all have recognized competitions.

    If no one is competing in cacc then it is done as a rule set which means its pretty much done as a style.

    I'm not putting it down and as background my first martial art was folk style and I still train no-gi bjj even if it is only a hobby.

    And I agree with everyone else when they say grappling is grappling, just depends on the rules you use.

    Happy New Year y'all.
    Mike

  11. #26
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    Thread necromancy to continue an obscure flame war--check.

    Rivalry involving UWC--check.

    Nitpiking to the nth degree--check.

    This thread may now be moved to the wing chun forum.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

  12. #27
    Not really, KC, I have no intention of getting drawn into any of that. I've said what I had to say. No point in taking it any further.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Did you hear that, Dave (lkfmdc)....all those the catch guys from the American midwest back in the day owe it all to Lancaschire!!!

    They didn't come up with anything on their own.

    Ha!
    Hardly what I said.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  14. #29
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    Clearly the catch as catch can bil jee is more traditional than folkstyle or bjj bil jee. This is because Bruce Lee never taught in Brazil, so that the latter two lack clear understanding of internal principles; they have the shell, sure, but it only looks internal, a real internalist could kill them dead as a Kennedy with a chance of becoming President.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

  15. #30
    My remarks were aimed at Frost - and not at you, Merryprankster.

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