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Thread: Zombie Threads of Old!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    My remarks were aimed at Frost - and not at you, Merryprankster.
    Oh. Well then I'll go get butthurt over here ---------->
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    My remarks were aimed at Frost - and not at you, Merryprankster.
    Um I said
    Frost
    maybe victors point was that although catch might have started in lanchashire its spread and changed so much over the years that its a different animal now and as such whilst it shares its name now it doesnt really have any right to claim any of its successes in later years
    Kind of like my point about catch not being able to nutride the coat tails of freestyle

    to which you replied


    Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun (Post 1070919)
    Did you hear that, Dave (lkfmdc)....all those the catch guys from the American midwest back in the day owe it all to Lancaschire!!!

    They didn't come up with anything on their own.

    Ha!
    Do you have a reading comprehension problem how the feck can you get what you said from what I said

    My point and I’ll try to make it very slowly was that if as you argue catch from the UK cant ride the coattails of all those catch guys in the Midwest because they developed and expanded what they learned so much that it no longer bears any resemblance to what was originally Lancashire catch, then you CANT argue that catch is working now because freestyle is being used in MMA with great success, for the same god**** reasons

    Now is that clear enough for you, if not..

    put another way catch is all but dead, no one is really teaching true ctach, and catch and free style are not the same thing…….

    I’ll try once more arguing that because freestyle dn catch have the same history but diverged at one point that any victory for freestyle validates catch is silly given your original post to merry on Lancashire catch

  3. #33
    There is no coat tail riding between the American midwest cacc and Lancashire cacc - and there never was. That is just a false issue that cacc haters like you want to try and create. And so I have nothing more to say about that. Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch are perfect examples of this - they each came from a different cacc tradition - and although their styles were slightly different - they were both excellent - and with great mutual respect for each other.

    As for my remarks about what amateur free style wrestling is - and specifically, what it's relationship to cacc is - that's indisputable.

    And yes, it's also a fact that many wrestlers who originally came from amateur free style are now very dominant in mma. Very dominant. And free style is cacc without the submissions and rough house tactics. Historical fact.

    So now, for free style wrestlers the issue becomes submissions and setups - and, for the sake of mma - no pinfalls.

    And I acknowledged on my first post on this thread that due to the lack of cacc instructors - these guys are basically learning their subs from BJJ.

    And that is probably how it will remain into the foreseeable future. That is, until guys like Sak and Barnett retire and teach full time (which remains to be seen) - and until Billy Robinson trains another great mma fighter (if ever)...and until someone may pop up who has trained in cacc from someone else - for there are a few other good cacc instructors around - but they're hard to find and train with.

    And I acknowledged the bottom game/top game phenomena - which means that any wrestler in today's mma who has always been taught to work for top dominant positions and simply to work for escapes - and escapes only - when he's on the bottom...needs to learn much more about the BJJ bottom game.

    But you see, Frost, your problem is that you expect some sort of surrender and admission that cacc is dead - and/or - that it's just a bull5hit carny showhold act.

    And none of that will ever be coming - so get over it.

    The same way I'm about to get over this thread.

    Merry and I have had our arguments on here over the years - but at least the guy conducts himself like a gentleman, and I respect him for that.

    You, on the other hand, are always looking for some angle to play - and I'm just not interested.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 01-07-2011 at 09:11 PM.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    And that is probably how it will remain into the foreseeable future. That is, until guys like Sak and Barnett retire and teach full time (which remains to be seen) - and until Billy Robinson trains another great mma fighter (if ever)...and until someone may pop up who has trained in cacc from someone else - for there are a few other good cacc instructors around - but they're hard to find and train with.
    Last I heard Billy Robinson was a regular in teaching the guys in Little Rock Arkansas at Westside MMA - http://www.westsidemma.com/. He's listed on the instructors page there.

    The head guys at that gym are BJJ black belts Roli Delgado and Matt Hamilton. Roli is also of fame fighting for the UFC and on TUF for a season.

    So whoever they have there at that gym are the up and coming MMA fighters that Billy is working with.

  5. #35
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    Victor,

    CACC, Freestyle, Folkstyle and Greco are all different rule sets used in grappling. Just like Judo, BJJ and Sambo.

    If no one is competing using that rule base then as a sport it is dying.

    Submission grappling is a new rule set. It is not catch although there may be some catch elements in it. Same with Freestyle and Folkstyle. They are using different rules than CACC and as such are not catch wrestling.

    I don't understand your hang up with the CACC wrestling brand. Its all grappling and its all good.
    Mike

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    CACC, Freestyle, Folkstyle and Greco are all different rule sets used in grappling. Just like Judo, BJJ and Sambo.

    If no one is competing using that rule base then as a sport it is dying.
    You're correct on Freestyle, Folkstyle, Greco with rulesets. Catch is supposed to be limited or no rulesets.

    I disagree on your assessment of things "dying". There is a great deal of interplay between the rulesets of Freestyle, Folkstyle and Greco. HS and College wrestlers mostly do Folkstyle, then if they go further train for Olympics in Greco and Freestyle. But it's stupid to think those athletes don't cross-compete or cross-train. Randy Couture being Greco can't do a low single? Not true - he stuck James Toney with one and beat him easily.

    You see all forms of wrestlers in BJJ and no gi competitions of all kinds. If it's similar, they'll try it out. Many will even put on a gi.

    Submission grappling is a new rule set. It is not catch although there may be some catch elements in it. Same with Freestyle and Folkstyle. They are using different rules than CACC and as such are not catch wrestling.
    Sub grappling is where they are trying to go with the Olympics to gain some kind of broad rule sets and exposure like Judo, Greco, Freestyle. They don't check credentials at the door and say "oh - CACC - you can't enter the tournament". So that's where catch guys compete along with many other styles and flavors.
    I don't understand your hang up with the CACC wrestling brand. Its all grappling and its all good.
    Victor doesn't realize that 'Catch vs. BJJ' arguments are so '00's. It's a new decade now so they all blend together.

  7. #37
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    Wayfaring, I wasn't talking about what the grapplers trained I was talking about catch as an active sport.

    If no one is competing using catch rules then catch as a sport is dying out.

    The techniques are still being used in other venues, the grapplers are still competing in other venues but the sport of catch isn't being played anywhere except maybe a few schools.

    Without its own competitions it will either fade away or be absorbed by submission grappling.
    Mike

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    Victor,
    I don't understand your hang up with the CACC wrestling brand. Its all grappling and its all good.
    not being funny but its the classic traditional hang up, the need to train something special and unique, something different from what everyone else is doing

    sports guys dont get this hang up as competition shows us what works and that nothings really secret or special

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Last I heard Billy Robinson was a regular in teaching the guys in Little Rock Arkansas at Westside MMA - http://www.westsidemma.com/. He's listed on the instructors page there.

    The head guys at that gym are BJJ black belts Roli Delgado and Matt Hamilton. Roli is also of fame fighting for the UFC and on TUF for a season.

    So whoever they have there at that gym are the up and coming MMA fighters that Billy is working with.
    ***And Roli has talked about Billy Robinson a number of times now on the UG - and is really impressed with him.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    ***And Roli has talked about Billy Robinson a number of times now on the UG - and is really impressed with him.
    Sure - I'd swing by there myself if I was around.

    There are a number of other guys around teaching catch too. Have you heard of Neil Melanson? I thought I heard he was the sub grappling coach at Extreme Couture in Vegas. I think he claims a catch background.

  11. #41
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    sports guys dont get this hang up as competition shows us what works and that nothings really secret or special
    Bingo.
    Give that man a cigar, perferably Cuban.
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    Wayfaring, I wasn't talking about what the grapplers trained I was talking about catch as an active sport.

    If no one is competing using catch rules then catch as a sport is dying out.
    Catch never was an active sport. If you look at the history it was a carnival display thing with challenge matches.

    Without its own competitions it will either fade away or be absorbed by submission grappling.
    No, catch will train people in its style and compete in submission grappling events, and MMA events. Sambo is kind of like that too right now - not a lot of schools, and just one national competition event that Steve Koepfer is putting together.

  13. #43
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    Yeah, I get your point but catch trains with pins which makes it sub optimal for submission grappling. Better to go with a submission based style rather than pin based style. Freestyle, Folk and Greco, while pin based sports at least have venues for competition where pins are useful.
    Mike

  14. #44
    "Catch never was an active sport. If you look at the history it was a carnival display thing with challenge matches." (Wayfaring)
    .............................................

    ***Incorrect. You need to look into the history of cacc wrestling matches in the late 1880's and 1890's/early years and decades of the 1900's - perhaps starting with some of the most famous of all, ie.- American Frank Gotch vs. George Hackenschmidt (2x)....Hackenschmidt was the reining heavyweight European Greco-Roman champion - which included Gotch submitting Hack with a toehold; Joe Stecher vs. Earl Caddock in Madison Square Garden, and hundreds of other matches.

    These were not carnival challenge matches.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 01-12-2011 at 07:45 PM.

  15. #45
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    So back to the main point, how many years until we see catch dominating in MMA )

    I was going to let this slide but I really can’t

    Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

    As for my remarks about what amateur free style wrestling is - and specifically, what it's relationship to cacc is - that's indisputable.

    And yes, it's also a fact that many wrestlers who originally came from amateur free style are now very dominant in mma. Very dominant. And free style is cacc without the submissions and rough house tactics. Historical fact.
    No its not, free style is a wrestling format that has had its own competition arena and rule set and grown on its own without CACC influence for over half a century. Both Freestyle and folk were pushed forward and improved by constant competition which led to innovation in both training methods and techniques, CACC stagnated and died off precisely because it didn’t have this competition arena (outside of staged/fixed matches) and no competitor pool to talk of

    Freestyle split from the fixed carnival show movement and went the legitimate sports route, claiming CACC is now dominate because freestyle guys do well in MMA is just silly, its like claiming judo dominates in MMA because BJJ guys do well in that environment………cant you see how silly such claims are?

    The fact is CACC is never going to dominate like you predicted 5 years ago, it’s simply a bad stand alone grappling style which has been passed by and superseded by more competitive minded grappling arts.

    look at all the good modern guys who you call great catch guys, Sak is a judo black belt and high school wrestler, Barnett trained with a BJJ black belt, Roli is a BJJ black belt, hell gene lebell is a former judo champ who blend catch techniques with other grappling styles, the best that can be said for CACC is that some of its techniques can be added to a base grappling art with good effect (a point David Ross made years ago on another thread)

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