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Thread: Zombie Threads of Old!

  1. #46
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    Frost, you got that right. That's the point I was trying to make. Without competition events of its own catch wrestling no longer exists as a sport.

    Catch only exists in the same way some of the old Japanese JuJutsu styles, as a historical recreation rather than an active style. It will never catch on again as a sport because submission grappling without pins has replaced it. It wasn't even an evolution as submission grappling grew out of the no-gi BJJ movement.

    But, if Victor wants to think he's a catch wrestler I guess he can.
    Mike

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    So back to the main point, how many years until we see catch dominating in MMA )

    I was going to let this slide but I really can’t


    No its not, free style is a wrestling format that has had its own competition arena and rule set and grown on its own without CACC influence for over half a century. Both Freestyle and folk were pushed forward and improved by constant competition which led to innovation in both training methods and techniques, CACC stagnated and died off precisely because it didn’t have this competition arena (outside of staged/fixed matches) and no competitor pool to talk of

    Freestyle split from the fixed carnival show movement and went the legitimate sports route, claiming CACC is now dominate because freestyle guys do well in MMA is just silly, its like claiming judo dominates in MMA because BJJ guys do well in that environment………cant you see how silly such claims are?

    The fact is CACC is never going to dominate like you predicted 5 years ago, it’s simply a bad stand alone grappling style which has been passed by and superseded by more competitive minded grappling arts.

    look at all the good modern guys who you call great catch guys, Sak is a judo black belt and high school wrestler, Barnett trained with a BJJ black belt, Roli is a BJJ black belt, hell gene lebell is a former judo champ who blend catch techniques with other grappling styles, the best that can be said for CACC is that some of its techniques can be added to a base grappling art with good effect (a point David Ross made years ago on another thread)
    word...........

  3. #48

    Since Lou Thesz, Karl Gotch, and Billy Robinson...

    this is the best catch wrestler the world has seen.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEFL0dt73g

  4. #49

    looks like Victor may have been onto something

    This is from a current thread on the UG.

    I had a chance to talk with Xtreme Couture Grappling Coach Neil Melanson about a smorgasbord of topics. Here is part one of the interview. Be sure to come back this week for the rest of the interview.

    Matthew Roth: The first question would be, can you explain what the difference between catch wrestling and no-gi grappling?

    Neil Melanson: Catch-as-catch can is like the original style of no-gi grappling. It’s original form is almost dead, there’s a few guys out there that can really do it. I consider myself a catch wrestler but when it comes down to true catch wrestling, I’m really not. That particular form, it’s so hard to find guys that know that style well. It had a lot to do with the application of what I call “mat wrestling” which people that are wrestlers, people to to quickly associate takedowns with wrestling and not realize there’s a lot of mat work in wrestling. That mat work and all of wrestling came from catch at one point, it was just a dumbed down version of it. It’s hard to find that element in no-gi grappling, that has a lot of jiu-jitsu influence from it, the majority if not all. It was mainly a brazilian jiu jitsu influence, so a lot of the concepts and the principals.

    Catch wrestlers focus on head and neck locks and controlling the body a certain way, where jiu jitsu, neck locks were illegal, so they have different techniques. Each art, whether it’s Brazilian Jiu Jistu, Judo, Catch Wrestling or grappling, whatever it is, they’re the best at what they do according to their rule set. If you talk about grappling with the gi on the ground with that rule set, you’re looking at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu being the front runner. If you’re talking about just the throws and all those other elements, then you’re talking about Judo and Wrestling. So I think no-gi grappling, without getting too long, is gonna start turning more and more into old school catch wrestling. I just foresee thats where it’s heading. Even if you look at Jiu Jitsu now, they’re changing their game to include some of the neck locks and arm locks, I think they’re eventually turning to the Catch Wrestling format. The original form of it, there’s only a few guys.

    MR: You’re listed on the Xtreme Couture website as the Jiu Jitsu coach, do you guys train in the gi at all or is it your form of Catch Wrestling?

    NM: Yeah, there’s no gi here. It shouldn’t say Jiu Jitsu on there, it should say submission grappling. We don’t do a gi here. We thought about having Gabe Gonzaga teach it when he was here and he wanted to teach it. It just didn’t formulate for whatever reason. I think they want to keep the MMA gym orientation and keep the programs to gel into each other and if we start incorporating the gi aspect, even if some people want that and it might do well, it might not choreograph into the rest of the program, where a lot of our guys start out in the grappling class or the kickboxing class then they take MMA classes to put it all together. Then they make it to the amateur team and then to the pro, so there’s kind of like a system and all the instructors bounce off each other. I think if you throw Gi in there, it would divert from the program a little bit. It might be successful, it might not be, I couldn’t say. As of right now it’s not in our future that we have any knowledge of.

    MR: You started out with Gene Lebell and I’ve seen that you’ve worked with Billy Robinson, how did those relationships come about?

    NM: I moved my whole life out to L.A. to study with Gokar and Gene was there every Monday and I would see Gene around of course. I took classes with Gene, he doesn’t really do privates but mostly worked with Gokar and then Karo. Me and Karo kinda linked up and I spent a lot of time with Karo because he was training for fights. He spent a lot of time with me and I was training under Karo mainly.

    As far as Billy Robinson, Jake Shannon kinda put us together cause I met Jake, he’s a friend and he worked with Billy. They know I love old school catch guys, I love to learn from them. Billy wanted to come out and work with me and Randy and show us some of his old stuff. I had a blast man, I had a blast. I loved when he came out, I hope to see him again soon. He’s a great guy and just a database of knowledge of history of all grappling and really unique, that Wigan style of catch is really cool. You know it sucks, I was talking about this the other day, Karl Gotch dying and how that sucks. I wish I got train with that guy before he passed and I can only hope that the people he trained keep it going.

  5. #50
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    This isn’t exactly new and it doesn’t change anything, another person saying catch is going to take over the no gi world when no gi comps have been going for like 2 decades and its not happened yet. The fact is BJJ dominates the biggest no gi competition in the world ADCC, and dominates no gi MMA, in the last ADCC comp only 1 weight category winner was not a BJJ black belt

    I come from a no gi club never done gi work in my life my club is big on takedowns and using the front nead lock on the ground to control and set up subs, however our core are and all core no gi club arts is BJJ, if you include guard, half guard etc you are doing no Gi bjj catchj doesn’t have those things in it

    Is wrestling a great art and base for grappling you bet, are front head locks, neck locks etc great to add to your arsenal you bet, but is no gi BJJ the best base for ground work (alongside wrestling) of course

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    only 1 weight category winner was not a BJJ black belt
    and who is that??? Japanese cat??? wrestler??? nah im guessing japan
    i only have up to 2009, i havent seen 2010 yet... i guess i should take a look for that... i havent really heard very much lately... i got all the mundials up to 2009 too, no wait, maybe not 2009, lol whatever doesnt matter... there arent very many great wrestling competitions outside of the college-university either... if anyone knows any names lemme know... freestyle... greco... whatever, i dont care, but wrestling...

    so yeah... who is the only one??? youre talking 2010, yeah?
    Last edited by Syn7; 02-27-2011 at 09:46 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    and who is that??? Japanese cat??? wrestler??? nah im guessing japan
    i only have up to 2009, i havent seen 2010 yet... i guess i should take a look for that... i havent really heard very much lately... i got all the mundials up to 2009 too, no wait, maybe not 2009, lol whatever doesnt matter... there arent very many great wrestling competitions outside of the college-university either... if anyone knows any names lemme know... freestyle... greco... whatever, i dont care, but wrestling...

    so yeah... who is the only one??? youre talking 2010, yeah?
    nope meant 2009. its biannual so next one is this year, i got it wrong all the champs at the last one were bjj guys, i thought monson took his catagory but that was in 2007 i think

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