WCK Strategies

[chusauli]

Without having to resort to personal attacks, I'd like a discussion of WCK strategies amongst all lineages.

For example, I use structure and breaking structure. As in the thread of breaking structure, I define structure as breaking your anatomical position as well as controlling your COG. It is being put in extreme offbalance, being peppered with strikes that have the full body structure behind them, not just striking with the arm. When controlling the COG and offsetting the opponent's anatomical position extremely, it sets him up to whatever I want to do: strike, kick, throw, jointlock, takedowns, etc.

That is one strategy.

I also use a strategy of sliding in, and striking. Intercepting, thwarting all attacks through strikes, using strikes rather than defensive tools of tan, fuk, bong, jut, huen, etc. This would be akin to a fencer's method of using epee - one stabs at all times anywhere, but not use any covering, but also peppered in with my structure breaking methods.

That is another strategy.

Another method I use is taking the back. Whatever the opponent does, I take his back. And when I use breaking body structure methods and take the back, they can lead to all sorts of strikes, kicks, and grappling methods.

Yet, another strategy.

Another way I adopt is to look like some other system and hide my WCK. Maybe I stand in a boxing stance or Muay Thai stance, Hung Ga, or Lama methods, but when I get into range, I do my WCK. Perhaps this is what Soo Hut Yee was teaching Wong Fei Hung - deception. When I get in range, WCK takes over, or I transition to grappling.

I hope you get my point.

As you might notice, it always uses the breaking body structure which remains a consistent theme. Largely because it takes a long time to develop WCK from head to toe and a trained body, rather than just an arm based WCK. But "long time" is realtive. Most people only have "Chien Bei Sao" and never "Hou Bei Sao", probably the term is even alien to most WCK people.

Perhaps we can proceed without resorting to the same old personal, speculative, imaginary attacks?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I also use a strategy of sliding in, and striking. Intercepting, thwarting all attacks through strikes, using strikes rather than defensive tools of tan, fuk, bong, jut, huen, etc. This would be akin to a fencer's method of using epee - one stabs at all times anywhere, but not use any covering, but also peppered in with my structure breaking methods." (RC)
.......................

***Thwarting all attacks through strikes, huh? No defensive tools to be used like blocks and parries, huh?

That's pretty good, Robert.

And highly unlikely against a truly skilled opponent who is at least your size, imo.

Not a personal attack, just an observation.

[chusauli]

I agree - only striking cannot always be done, in fact, none of the strategies work all the time. That's why personal attachment to one method is just silly.

As I said they're just strategies. One doesn't work, you switch to the next.

What strategies do you use?

[YungChun]

Attacking their structure is a hell of lot more practical than blocking is going to be...

Blocking doesn't take anything away from the opponent, it causes hand chasing, relies on hand speed, keeps you behind the timing and is not VT's method...

VT's simplest and most basic method of entry is to attach their attack, to attack their structure in a single action that is both offensive and defensive....breaks their structure and steals the timing..

More complex actions are not easier or simpler...

[Ultimatewingchun]

I agree - only striking cannot always be done, in fact, none of the strategies work all the time. That's why personal attachment to one method is just silly.

***SOUNDS LIKE JKD !!!

As I said they're just strategies. One doesn't work, you switch to the next.

What strategies do you use?

I use a mixture of various strikes (and some kicks) to get in close - and those strikes (leads, crosses, overhands, rounds, vertical fist wing chun punches) are meant to either hit a hard target or to force a bridge - by striking somewhere on the vertical line running down his left side (his shoulders on down) with my right fist...and the same applies to his right side with my left.

So the initial strategy is to put him on defense with strikes aimed at making him play defense or he takes a hit to the body or head - by covering what I'll refer to as TWO DIFFERENT vertical centerlines running vertically down from his shoulder lines....I'm making use of the shortest distance between two points idea - but with two epees, if you will.

And always ready to use tan, bil, pak, lop, garn, lan, bong, etc. BOTH as blocks and parries AND as a bridge to cross in order to gain a very close quarter advantage...

And yes, "taking his back" is also very big - a big reason why I use the TWC emphasized parallel leg/parallel arm matched leads very often - as getting behind his lead leg is usually easier from there.

And the object of all of this is to get in close with this kind of striking strategy or to score some damaging blows from longer range - which ever comes first.

At which point I too am now working to break his structure by upsetting his balance and his COG - and to deliver blows from very close range, using pak, lop, gum, lan, etc. - resulting in either a knockout (via punches, elbows, knees)....or the opportunity to take him down. And yes, to use the Alan Orr vid example - that kind of drill right through his balance with deep penetration (and with my main centerline facing his point of mass) is also a big part of what I'm trying to do....

and of course, doing this with my whole body behind it - not just arms.

If this is thwarted and it becomes a very close infight of the clinch mode variety - then the strategy is to control him, break his stucture and unbalance him and land damaging blows by EITHER using neck ties with knee and elbow stikes - OR - if another strategy is forced upon me due to the depth of the clinch mode: wrestling/grappling....as the "dirty boxing clinch range" if you will - can easily turn into a very deep clinch leading to trips, sweeps, single and double leg takedowns, etc.

So I don't disagree about the importance of breaking the man's structure, which I'm defining as taking his balance away from him and upsetting his COG so that I can really control his body - making it easier to deliver damaging blows, a damaging takedown or throw - or finishing with a submission.

[Hendrik]

I agree - only striking cannot always be done, in fact, none of the strategies work all the time. That's why personal attachment to one method is just silly.

As I said they're just strategies. One doesn't work, you switch to the next.

What strategies do you use?

I dont think that is a personal attachment and only striking work well for those who are good at it. Take a look at WXZ the Yee Chuan founder's case -- Everything is a strike; advance MA is dealing with the contact point. no one has time to waste time but use the best tool to end it. It is not a shaws brother movie.

As it said, half step of Peng Chuan walking around the whole china. just a single strike.


IMHO,
Those Tan Bong Fook stuffs are just for practice and drill, in the real life it is how to deal with each contact point and each contact point is not fix but similar to flowing water.

In Yik Kam WCK as we know all the stuffs are condense into the four circles and the four circles are later condense into Pu Chao Pu Jia Tze seh Yee sia -- just one strike.

[Wayfaring]

My strategy is if I know the opponent I try to work to his weakness.

If I don't know the opponent I make little test runs which are a question and answer session determined to learn information about my opponent. Then I proceed with above strategy.

If my "Q&A" test sessions don't turn up anything that leaves me confident, I migrate to my own strong areas and work from there.

[t_niehoff]

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking him. So you can say that there are two aspects to WCK, a defensive aspect (controlling) and and offensive aspect (striking).

Typically, we link our defense (controlling actions) to bring in striking (offensive actions) -- lien siu die da. How you individually put those aspects together for yourself can/will depend on the situation, including your natural strengths, etc..

Tactically or strategically, I can decide, for example, to use very little control and use mainly offensive striking in an enounter. And, there are times -- very limited situations -- when that offensive striking can also act as defense. This is a risky strategy, but sometimes it is appropriate and you pull it off.

You can also decide to, for example, to use very little offensive striking and use mainly controlling actions.

Those are the two extremes.

There is flexibility in the method, but that doesn't alter what that method is. And, obviously, the better rounded you are in WCK, the more flexible you can be in your tactical/strategic choices. If you can't control your opponent, then you are "stuck" only using the offensive game, whether it is appropriate or not.

But, if you are not using the WCK tools, you can't be using WCK. If you are throwing jabs, crosses and hooks, for example, you are not doing WCK. If you are kickboxing, you are not doing WCK.

[Paul T England]

great topic, reminds me of old wing chun forum.

From non contact I like using the wing chun blocks/shapes as covers while hitting

From contact, attack and control strucutre/centre striking and unbalancing opponent

I like the lien wan/ linked idea (aka chain punching) but I think of it as half beat rather than together.

Paul

[LoneTiger108]

I agree, this seems to be a great topic Robert and it's good to see everyones ideas on strategies are very similar indeed.

Personally, I like weaponry training and so employ certain strategies from there. An example is the pole saying 'no second sound' which transfers to the hands easily, meaning I like to touch once, then control and attack from that initial contact. Yes, I too believe that one touch is enough for a skilled practitioner to control a novice and I always aim to be able to do this whatever my partners skill level.

To support whatever strategy I initiate in a combat scenario (in my head as I spar/fight very little these days!) I am a true believer in having strong fundamental Wing Chun training that must cover accuracy, speed and power drills or you may find that a said strategy (especially among the kuit) just will never work when you want it too

[chusauli]

I use a mixture of various strikes (and some kicks) to get in close - and those strikes (leads, crosses, overhands, rounds, vertical fist wing chun punches) are meant to either hit a hard target or to force a bridge - by striking somewhere on the vertical line running down his left side (his shoulders on down) with my right fist...and the same applies to his right side with my left.

So the initial strategy is to put him on defense with strikes aimed at making him play defense or he takes a hit to the body or head - by covering what I'll refer to as TWO DIFFERENT vertical centerlines running vertically down from his shoulder lines....I'm making use of the shortest distance between two points idea - but with two epees, if you will.

And always ready to use tan, bil, pak, lop, garn, lan, bong, etc. BOTH as blocks and parries AND as a bridge to cross in order to gain a very close quarter advantage...

And yes, "taking his back" is also very big - a big reason why I use the TWC emphasized parallel leg/parallel arm matched leads very often - as getting behind his lead leg is usually easier from there.

And the object of all of this is to get in close with this kind of striking strategy or to score some damaging blows from longer range - which ever comes first.

At which point I too am now working to break his structure by upsetting his balance and his COG - and to deliver blows from very close range, using pak, lop, gum, lan, etc. - resulting in either a knockout (via punches, elbows, knees)....or the opportunity to take him down. And yes, to use the Alan Orr vid example - that kind of drill right through his balance with deep penetration (and with my main centerline facing his point of mass) is also a big part of what I'm trying to do....

and of course, doing this with my whole body behind it - not just arms.

If this is thwarted and it becomes a very close infight of the clinch mode variety - then the strategy is to control him, break his stucture and unbalance him and land damaging blows by EITHER using neck ties with knee and elbow stikes - OR - if another strategy is forced upon me due to the depth of the clinch mode: wrestling/grappling....as the "dirty boxing clinch range" if you will - can easily turn into a very deep clinch leading to trips, sweeps, single and double leg takedowns, etc.

So I don't disagree about the importance of breaking the man's structure, which I'm defining as taking his balance away from him and upsetting his COG so that I can really control his body - making it easier to deliver damaging blows, a damaging takedown or throw - or finishing with a submission.

Very good!

WRT to "sounds like JKD", Hawkins showed me the stuff Bruce shared with him in HK. I think its fine, but it is heavily dependent upon your timing, skill, and your physical attributes.

No matter what the strategy, all WCK people share overlaps. Maybe some emphasize more than others. Its good to have this forum to discuss.

WCK is not a complete fighting art encompassing throws, joint locks, takedowns, grappling, nor long range kicks, or long range strikes but has its favored specialty.

[chusauli]

But, if you are not using the WCK tools, you can't be using WCK. If you are throwing jabs, crosses and hooks, for example, you are not doing WCK. If you are kickboxing, you are not doing WCK.

Agreed. Kickboxing or boxing are not WCK, they don't share the same mechanics or toolset.

[chusauli]

I dont think that is a personal attachment and only striking work well for those who are good at it. Take a look at WXZ the Yee Chuan founder's case -- Everything is a strike; advance MA is dealing with the contact point. no one has time to waste time but use the best tool to end it. It is not a shaws brother movie.

As it said, half step of Peng Chuan walking around the whole china. just a single strike.


IMHO,
Those Tan Bong Fook stuffs are just for practice and drill, in the real life it is how to deal with each contact point and each contact point is not fix but similar to flowing water.

In Yik Kam WCK as we know all the stuffs are condense into the four circles and the four circles are later condense into Pu Chao Pu Jia Tze seh Yee sia -- just one strike.

Yes, striking is the key objective of WCK, and the training just gets one comfortable in front of an opponent. The four circles of Yik Kam have a lot of merit, they can take any incoming force and disperse and strike.

Thank you for sharing.

[chusauli]

I agree, this seems to be a great topic Robert and it's good to see everyones ideas on strategies are very similar indeed.

Personally, I like weaponry training and so employ certain strategies from there. An example is the pole saying 'no second sound' which transfers to the hands easily, meaning I like to touch once, then control and attack from that initial contact. Yes, I too believe that one touch is enough for a skilled practitioner to control a novice and I always aim to be able to do this whatever my partners skill level.

To support whatever strategy I initiate in a combat scenario (in my head as I spar/fight very little these days!) I am a true believer in having strong fundamental Wing Chun training that must cover accuracy, speed and power drills or you may find that a said strategy (especially among the kuit) just will never work when you want it too

The tactics that apply to the hand also apply to the knives and pole.

[chusauli]

My strategy is if I know the opponent I try to work to his weakness.

If I don't know the opponent I make little test runs which are a question and answer session determined to learn information about my opponent. Then I proceed with above strategy.

If my "Q&A" test sessions don't turn up anything that leaves me confident, I migrate to my own strong areas and work from there.

This is the use of the WCK "Mun Sao" (Asking hand) - many look at it as a specific technique, but it is a tool of our system. Which hand is real, which hand is fake?

You can also apply Mun Sao as "if I face you like this, or use these other tools, what would you do?" Then you don't have to use WCK tools.