Hey Jim!Originally Posted by YungChun
When I did my own fishing around on youtube those clips from Jai Harmon were about the best ones I could find as well.
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Hey Jim!
When I did my own fishing around on youtube those clips from Jai Harmon were about the best ones I could find as well.
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Totally agree.
A typical comedic response, which was quite funny actually! Although I'd seen the clip before. Aint easy finding clips to prove what we're all saying is it?
Not my intention. Compare poor fistwork in WCK to a sloppy jab that is never in distance.
If all you are taught is lienwan kuen and think that blasting your way through a strong defence with limitless punchunig (what some refer too as 'caveman wck') then I think that would classify as 'low end' skill. Charging blindly forwards aiming at the same target works against a non martial artist as a surprise technique, but against another skilled fighter? No. You will be taken out very quickly imho.
My point is, most schools teach the fistwork in sets of three or four. Three being the key imho. This is how the lienwan kuen should be excecuted and if you haven't found your target by the 3rd you need to change tactic. This 'concept' doesn't restrict the target you aim for either as we have 3 paths too consider(upper, middle and lower) and the combinations of your fistwork can reflect this.
Then, of course some would have 3 distinctly different fist/elbow/shoulder alignments originating from the seed of bong, tan and fook. A little idea that should be naturally developed, which I sadly do not see that often. Even in some of the most senior practitioners I have met.
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Banned
***Just watched this for the first time, Frost. My God, you and I are really on the same page, about this anyway!
Anyway, that vid you posted is beautiful, and is reminiscent of numerous sparring sessions I've had over the years with guys who can really box - and especially guys with a longer reach.
Boxers are going to round punch, hook, or overhand around your wing chun arm structure - and as you come in: they will bypass your defense, and beat on you before you can make your "shortest distance between two points is a straight line" approach work its magic on them.
It's about distance.
WING CHUN IS A CLOSE QUARTER STANDUP STRIKING GAME, and getting to that location is the biggest challenge for the wing chun fighter - getting there before being tagged (possibly heavily) by lead hand round punches and hooks, or, as we saw - a rear cross that can put you on the floor.
If you're really in close quarter striking range, then basic wing chun striking and attempts to control the opponent's body can work.
If you're not - you're inviting trouble if you limit yourself to such narrow lines and real estate coverage as what was seen in the vid. The wing chun guy was doing the move straight ahead and straight line punching attack - and he paid the price for it becuase the boxer is using a more dynamic footwork, can bobb and weave, slip, duck, etc. And if his reach is longer than yours, and it's not close striking range - then you're really inviting trouble. He can hold his arms back and offline - and pick you off by going around your structure as you move in by timing you.
Remember, in "pure" wing chun, there's no bobbing and weaving, no ducking, no slipping, no raised heel up on the toes broken rhythm footwork....because it's all about keeping the wing chun "structure and body alignment" intact.
And a good boxer can give you a hell of a lot of trouble if your arms are always held in the basic wing chun position and all your strikes are straight, and even though you might try to use some angling as you approach - the final push to penetrate is always to come straight in. He knows where your arms are at all times and what you're trying to do...
he always knows where your head is, he sees that your strikes and other arm motions are all basically very straight, and you become very predictable.
I've seen this time and again when sparring with boxers (and especially when against guys with a longer reach) - like in that vid.
And without some real hard contact and frequent sparring against guys with serious boxing skills - these things will never come to light for wing chun guys.
That's why I eventually developed a straight lead, rear cross, and even round punch strategy (along with some more dynamic footwork and slipping, etc.) of my own through the years to get close - but using these things within a central line/centerline structure...
so that my left arm is dueling his right arm and my right arm is dueling his left arm for control of valuable real estate: ie.- two vertical centerlines: one that runs down his body from his right shoulder line, and one from his left shoulder line...
to get close - without getting beaten by his punches and his footwork.
I'm using long swords, if you will, to battle his long swords - in order to get to the point where my short swords can take over and work along my main centerline to attack and control his center of mass....
including the willingness to go to clinch, neck ties and knees, over and unders, trips, takedowns and shoots, etc.
But that's another matter.
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 01-15-2011 at 05:34 PM.
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Going down the JKD/MMA path no doubt. Its the natural thing to do.
But you should no longer call it Wing Chun and just call it JKD (this may upset your Sifu and he may no longer want to talk to you). Its your own interpretation of what works for you. Wing Chun is still your foundation.
Banned
I've explained numerous times how I'm using TWC centraline principles in order to do this - and therefore the result is waaay more like TWC than JKD.
And that includes the front kicks and roundhouse kicks that I may also employ as part of the strategy to get in close - that's also part of basic TWC.
I'm not going back to that anymore. Check out some of my past posts on this. People "want" to label what I do non-wingchun/JKD because they can't admit that there are holes (limitations) in the wing chun game - or that they themselves have added non wing chun into their game - and instead of acknowledging that they have added some elements from other styles - even though what they do still revolves around basic wing chun...
they make the claim that it's still all wing chun (ie.- the wing chun "guillotine", for example).
So naturally they want to discredit what I'm doing and talking about..."oh, it's just a JKD approach"...."it's no longer wing chun", etc.
And I'm not necessarily directing this at you, Niersun.
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 01-15-2011 at 05:34 PM.
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No dramas mate.
Fighting is fighting to me. Its hardly ever anything that you see in the movies where you can distinctively tell the difference between the styles.
I was just suggesting something that i would do if i were in your shoes.
Banned
I understand. Not a problem.
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When
- the fire has reached to the highest temperature, that fire will have no color.
- a MA guy has reached to the highest level, that guy will have no "style".
I truly hate people who said, "You don't fight like ... or you don't fight like ...". When your opponent is unconcious below your knee, he can't care less which style that you had used to knock him out.
The day that you no longer have "style boundary" in mind, the day that you will become the master of your style/styles, and you no longer be the slave of it.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-15-2011 at 12:33 PM.
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I'm not a fan of this "pure" wing chun ideal you have here. Especially if you think that when you spar with Wing Chun there is no "bobbing and weaving, no ducking, no slipping, no raised heel up on the toes broken rhythm footwork". All of this IS present within the Wing Chun I have been taught, and Lee Shing was a Sifu of Ip Mans teaching primarily (my own Sifu being a direct student of LS for over 25 years) What makes you think the heel up isn't there? Or that it would affect your Wing Chun structure negatively or take you away from this 'pure' image you talk of? Or are you talking about others here?
Many people fall into the trap of copying the old masters, almost mimicking them exactly, when these old masters (let's use Ip Man as a prime example) were over 70 and actually very ill when the filming was done. The forms we are accustomed to seeing over the World are 'dead' images, they have no life in them at all until you breathe life into them yourself and guided through them by someone that has also been guided through them. And this is a pretty free process, as is 'free-style' sparring. It's open to peoples individuality and character, especially when we are young. I think many try to adapt more modern methods, like you have, by trying to keep whatever ideas they have about Wing Chun intact. But this should never just be a very basic image of our style that, imho, should never have been put there in the first place!
Of course, I'm also a firm believer (well FME anyways) in there being hooks and upper cuts in Wing Chun too AND the mechanics to use one of these simple images from a form to apply headlocks and guilotines. CK is a good example. But what I would say is that these 'ideas' are NOT my interpretation, it's simply what I was exposed to on my journey within Siu Lim Tao alone, and I'm still learning more everyday without my Sifu as he managed to pass on good, strong foundations for me to nurture and grow from.
Just an observation and attempt to help you see what many others have already seen too. Although I also understand that many others see this from cross training or mixing their martial arts knowledge base with sports sciences, so I understand your frustration at being mocked by others for just trying to improve and develop. I feel your pain dude, as I'm targetted too sometimes for rolling my eyes and being gay!! (which I'm not by the way lol!)
Ti Fei
詠春國術
Registered User
I don't like the word "pure" either. Cross training will force you to look at thing from different angles. Some Taiji guys said that when you train Taiji, your
- head should be vertical,
- heel should be down, and
- body should not lean.
The day that Taiji guy starts to train "hip throw", he will realize that all those articifical restriction was just BS, and his view of CMA was just like a frog at the bottom of the well, and assume the sky was no bigger than the well.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-15-2011 at 12:51 PM.
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Not so much BS, but just an idea that IS used for specific purpose during set forms/patterns that do not cover the classic hip throw in the way you know it. But I see your point.
Ti Fei
詠春國術
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Hey Victor!
I think what you are talking about is certainly Wing Chun! Like I've said in other posts, I have been exploring something similar using a Jun Fan/JKD perspective. I've come to think of what I am doing as "Jun Fan Wing Chun", but still consider it Wing Chun! After all, you have JKD guys like Lamar Davis that have a WCK "flavor" in their JKD. Why can't we have some WCK with a "JKD flavor." :-)
Banned
Keith, Lone, You know who:
I'm feelin' you guys.
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Remember, in "pure" wing chun, there's no bobbing and weaving, no ducking, no slipping, no raised heel up on the toes broken rhythm footwork....because it's all about keeping the wing chun "structure and body alignment" intact.
((Thanks Victor for expressing your views. You seem to have come to some conclusions over time which you have expressed many times. My views area little different because my wing chun
is likely to be different from yours and TWC. BTW- the heel can be raised when needed.Some more comments below. Thx. Joy)))
And a good boxer can give you a hell of a lot of trouble if your arms are always held in the basic wing chun position and all your strikes are straight, and even though you might try to use some angling as you approach - the final push to penetrate is always to come straight in. He knows where your arms are at all times and what you're trying to do...
((My hands are not rigid when properly held in the front and the center is closed.There is always motion- may not be visible. A boxer specially a good one should never be underestimated))
he always knows where your head is, he sees that your strikes and other arm motions are all basically very straight, and you become very predictable.
((Not necessarily))
I've seen this time and again when sparring with boxers (and especially when against guys with a longer reach) - like in that vid.
And without some real hard contact and frequent sparring against guys with serious boxing skills - these things will never come to light for wing chun guys.
((Wing chun folks should try their game against all sorts of folks))
That's why I eventually developed a straight lead, rear cross, and even round punch strategy (along with some more dynamic footwork and slipping, etc.) of my own through the years to get close - but using these things within a central line/centerline structure...
((Boxing stances and foot work are not the only way to get close. Wing chun IMO is capable of a rich repertoire of footwork to reach contact point.
I have not seen that foot work in many
practitioners.
From very far away one can be natural..walking, running etc. The balancing of the knees and ankles and the structural coordination achieved through much ygkym, slt and chum kiu- insures wing chun approach to coordination no matter what the distance. Of course we all will develop our individual moves but that is not necessarily adding layers on wing chun for every one. Wing chun is not about fixed techniques IMO- it's a way of mastering martial motion.
I want to re-iterate- I do not underestimate boxers and wrestlers.
In action, there is always motion in wing chun- standing still- and one is a sitting duck for the boxer or wrestler. But wing chun motion is not always bobbing and weaving,or hopping. Good slt paves the way for good chum kiu and in biu jee all kinds of unorthodox motions make radical adjustments possible.
Then there is individuation and taking care of what is on hand. Wing chun folks can adapt and not be mechanical or become boxers and grapplers. To do the last two- box and wrestle one needs to begin in their teens and with a few exceptions one is done by the time they are 30. You can maintain some but progress will be slow.Wing chun is so natural one keeps on learning and getting rid of rigidities. My take any way- not intentionally preaching.Joy))
Banned
No. It is about TIMING.
You talk about how boxers will "bypass your defense" (WCK arm structure?) -- that is true, if you are being defensive, if you are trying to block/parry, etc.
WCK's method is to strike as you come in (as your entry) -- not block or parry -- but to hit them, whether arm or body or whatever we can, to disrupt their structure and so their ability to generate an offense. Then you don't need to deal with what they do as they are busy dealing with what you are doing. You want to put the opponent BEHIND THE TIMING.
That is only half of WCK. WCK's approach is to control the opponent while striking him. If you are in "close quarters" -- the phone booth -- in most situations you can't get away with only striking him. If you are in range to hit him, he can hit you. He can grab you. He can do all kinds of things. Without controlling him, he has all these options open. By controlling him, you take those things away. Again, keeping him BEHIND THE TIMING.WING CHUN IS A CLOSE QUARTER STANDUP STRIKING GAME,
Actually, that isn't the "biggest challenge". Most people don't really guard the inside -- they aren't on an active stop-the-guy-from-getting-in mode. The more someone throws from the outside, the easiest it is get in.and getting to that location is the biggest challenge for the wing chun fighter - getting there before being tagged (possibly heavily) by lead hand round punches and hooks, or, as we saw - a rear cross that can put you on the floor.
Yes, or to put it another way, if you are in clinch range, dirty clinch can work!If you're really in close quarter striking range, then basic wing chun striking and attempts to control the opponent's body can work.
The WCK guy in the video didn't really have trouble getting in -- he "got in" several times without even trying! The WCK wasn't using WCK's method. He didn't break the opponent's structure, wasn't even trying to, wasn't trying to control, etc. He was essentially trying to use WCK kickboxing.If you're not - you're inviting trouble if you limit yourself to such narrow lines and real estate coverage as what was seen in the vid. The wing chun guy was doing the move straight ahead and straight line punching attack - and he paid the price for it becuase the boxer is using a more dynamic footwork, can bobb and weave, slip, duck, etc. And if his reach is longer than yours, and it's not close striking range - then you're really inviting trouble. He can hold his arms back and offline - and pick you off by going around your structure as you move in by timing you.
No. That's not true. WCK has a "bob", it has changing levels (gwa ma), it has "slipping", etc. The WCK "structure and body alignment" is for contact, not noncontact. They are "designed" for controlling an opponent. Mechanics are task specific. On the outside, we use a different method and different mechanics.Remember, in "pure" wing chun, there's no bobbing and weaving, no ducking, no slipping, no raised heel up on the toes broken rhythm footwork....because it's all about keeping the wing chun "structure and body alignment" intact.
Yes, if you use WCK kickboxing, you will fail.And a good boxer can give you a hell of a lot of trouble if your arms are always held in the basic wing chun position and all your strikes are straight, and even though you might try to use some angling as you approach - the final push to penetrate is always to come straight in. He knows where your arms are at all times and what you're trying to do...
he always knows where your head is, he sees that your strikes and other arm motions are all basically very straight, and you become very predictable.
I've seen this time and again when sparring with boxers (and especially when against guys with a longer reach) - like in that vid.
Yes, that is another matter. It's not WCK.And without some real hard contact and frequent sparring against guys with serious boxing skills - these things will never come to light for wing chun guys.
That's why I eventually developed a straight lead, rear cross, and even round punch strategy (along with some more dynamic footwork and slipping, etc.) of my own through the years to get close - but using these things within a central line/centerline structure...
so that my left arm is dueling his right arm and my right arm is dueling his left arm for control of valuable real estate: ie.- two vertical centerlines: one that runs down his body from his right shoulder line, and one from his left shoulder line...
to get close - without getting beaten by his punches and his footwork.
I'm using long swords, if you will, to battle his long swords - in order to get to the point where my short swords can take over and work along my main centerline to attack and control his center of mass....
including the willingness to go to clinch, neck ties and knees, over and unders, trips, takedowns and shoots, etc.
But that's another matter.
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