how not to fight a boxer

[goju]

What? Are you serious? I can't point out that someone can't play the violin well unless I am willing to post a video of myself playing? Is that your view?

Do you know what I don't think is fair, Keith? For me to spend years working my ass off, taking beating after beating, paying my dues in blood, sweat, injuries, training with the best people I can find, etc. to work out how to make my WCK functional, to then have people who don't really even train, who won't do any work themselves, who won't even seek out people to teach them, who are afraid to walk into a MMA gym, but then believe that I owe it to them to show them how to do it.

Man you really need to chill out you're raging on here for one

Two, anyone can say they have worked their arse off for years. trained with the best, and paid their dues ANYONE It means nothing really especially when you're an anonymous guy whos know ones heard of. It's like you expect a big ole cookie for your alleged accomplishments in Martial arts and by calling them alleged I'm not knocking you. I'm just stating the facts.

You're just another older guy on here who claims they train hard and have trained for along time thats it . Youre just like 97 percent of this forum only for some reason you think your claims about yourself some how should be taken and marked on stone tablets like they are the word of god.

Think about it if some guy just popped up out of nowhere on here and started bashing your wing chun, youre training and you have never seen him, met him, nada how exactly would you handle that or what would you think of him?

Odds are you would get ****ed and dismiss the guy yet you carry on in the same bizarre way with everyone and think theres nothing remotely odd about it.

We get it you don't like most people here or what they do just let it go already laddy. The constant bashing of everyone makes it sound like youre either trolling or have some massive delusional disorder.

[t_niehoff]

Man you really need to chill out you're raging on here for one

Two, anyone can say they have worked their arse off for years. trained with the best, and paid their dues ANYONE It means nothing really especially when you're an anonymous guy whos know ones heard of. It's like you expect a big ole cookie for your alleged accomplishments in Martial arts and by calling them alleged I'm not knocking you. I'm just stating the facts.

You're just another older guy on here who claims they train hard and have trained for along time thats it . Youre just like 97 percent of this forum only for some reason you think your claims about yourself some how should be taken and marked on stone tablets like they are the word of god.

Think about it if some guy just popped up out of nowhere on here and started bashing your wing chun, youre training and you have never seen him, met him, nada how exactly would you handle that or what would you think of him?

Odds are you would get ****ed and dismiss the guy yet you carry on in the same bizarre way with everyone and think theres nothing remotely odd about it.

We get it you don't like most people here or what they do just let it go already laddy. The constant bashing of everyone makes it sound like youre either trolling or have some massive delusional disorder.

I'm sure this post will get deleted, but let me say that I don't care if anyone believes me or not. In fact, I don't want them to accept what I say -- I want them to go find out for themselves, to go do the work themselves, and to not take my word or anyone's -- including the so-called masters and grandmasters.

You are a troll. You don't even train WCK. So you have absolutely no idea about anything having to do with WCK. And you haven't trained MMA either. Troll.

[goju]

I'm sure this post will get deleted, but let me say that I don't care if anyone believes me or not. In fact, I don't want them to accept what I say -- I want them to go find out for themselves, to go do the work themselves, and to not take my word or anyone's -- including the so-called masters and grandmasters.

You argue so passionately on here for the exact reason that you want people to believe you. Thats the whole point of arguing after all LOL The harder you debate the more eager you are to get your view across.


As ive said and dont get all riled up at this but you are just some random anonymous bum like most of us here and because of that you should be a bit more humble in your mannerisms given who you are.

I can claim im a bb in 12 different arts. roll with andersons silva regularly, and am a bad ass bounty hunter with a grim reaper tattoo on my skull


While im entitled to make these claims however silly they may be after a while it makes a person look ridiculous if they keep banging on about it. You know what i mean?

[SavvySavage]

The "inch power" can be seen in Taiji Ji, An, vital punch, brush knee, ... The interest question is "Is inch power used for striking or throwing?" Do your want to kill your opponent with your Taiji "push"?, or you just want to use your Taiji "push" to throw your opponent down, and let the hard ground to do the striking for you?


When we mix the "striking world" and the "throwing world", thing can get confused. In the

- striking world, you want to create a "head on collusion" so you can use your your power and hurt your opponent to the maximum.
- throwing world, you want to create a "rear end collusion" so you can add your force along with your opponent's force and that will make your throw easier.

Do you need to break your opponent's structure before knocking him out? I think that will be counter productive to a "head on collusion". The better structure that your opponent has, the more damage that when he receives your punch. Here is my favor "head on collusion" example. Please watch how did Anthony Hopkins killed that bear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

Do you need to break your opponent's structure before throw him down? I think that will also be counter productive to a "rear end collusion". All you need is just give your force first, when your opponent resists, you borrow his force and "reverse" your throw. There is rarely a shock first, it is usually a "everything is fine...what the hell?" kind of feeling.

I agree with this. I always hear tai chi people talking about structure this and structure that. Now wing chun people talk about it a lot. The structure some people keep harping on is, IMO, mostly good for throwing. Boxers don't grab onto you and shake you while hitting you. They just hit until you fall like in the clip. If your practice all this "structure" stuff without learning from experienced wrestlers then you are wasting your time IMO. Your time would be better spent on training with people who have hit and thrown consistently than just learning how to shake each other.

[t_niehoff]

You argue so passionately on here for the exact reason that you want people to believe you. Thats the whole point of arguing after all LOL The harder you debate the more eager you are to get your view across.


As ive said and dont get all riled up at this but you are just some random anonymous bum like most of us here and because of that you should be a bit more humble in your mannerisms given who you are.

I'm not anonymous -- I use my real name, people on this forum have met me, trained with me, etc. My sifu posts here.

So, I'm not like YOU.

The whole "humble" thing is nonsense. I know what my skill level is, what I can do and not do, etc. Anyone who really trains will. I have repeatedly said that I am not that good. I'm one of the few who admit it.

I argue against what I see as bullsh1t. There is loads of it in the TMAs and in WCK. I used to believe much of the bullsh1t. Now I know better. And I know that it is the bullsh1t that holds us back. It held me back. But it is so pervasive, and it continues to grow.

[goju]

I'm not anonymous -- I use my real name, people on this forum have met me, trained with me, etc. My sifu posts here.

So, I'm not like YOU.

The whole "humble" thing is nonsense. I know what my skill level is, what I can do and not do, etc. Anyone who really trains will. I have repeatedly said that I am not that good. I'm one of the few who admit it.

I argue against what I see as bullsh1t. There is loads of it in the TMAs and in WCK. I used to believe much of the bullsh1t. Now I know better. And I know that it is the bullsh1t that holds us back. It held me back. But it is so pervasive, and it continues to grow.

yes my names david o"casey and theres thousands of other people running around with my same name, my pictures been posted here as well and ive sparred with a fellow poster here who wrote about his meet up with me in one of the threads


with that being said again SO WHAT?

like you i stated a common name that many people have, ive met with some on here who again was another random forum poster and most here have seen my mug

He wrote his account of our meeting but it wasnt caught on tape so you have to go by what he or i said occured (again sounds like you)


Now if we look at this rationally its not really a big whoop for the reasons i noted above


have you met the specific people on here you are bashing?

did you tape your meetings with the people you said you met ala the bullshido throw down clips?

did you spar? what caliber of a martial artist were the people you met?

Exactly as i said youre entitled to beliefs about yourself but thats all they are your beliefs and since no one knows much about you ( no fight record, no school etc,etc) there no point i carrying on about it.Youre just a guy who thinks he can apply his art. Welcome to the club

Theres tons of bs in martial arts.Always have been always will be you or anyone else isnt going to change that no matter how hard you try.

[KPM]

I guess this post from Terence must have gotten deleted somewhere along the way? So I cut this from goju's response and give my own response, since it was directed at me:

Terence wrote:
What? Are you serious? I can't point out that someone can't play the violin well unless I am willing to post a video of myself playing? Is that your view?

---No. Critics blast someone else's art and performance all the time without being able to actually do the thing themselves. But....they will at least be able to make a far comparison to something directly related in order to show the validity of their criticism. You made a comparison to boxing, not to WCK. I'm not asking you to go out and post your own video. Just point us to someone else's that is better than Phil's! What you say? There aren't any such clips of WCK? I wonder why?


Do you know what I don't think is fair, Keith? For me to spend years working my ass off, taking beating after beating, paying my dues in blood, sweat, injuries, training with the best people I can find, etc. to work out how to make my WCK functional, to then have people who don't really even train, who won't do any work themselves, who won't even seek out people to teach them, who are afraid to walk into a MMA gym, but then believe that I owe it to them to show them how to do it.

---Any endeavor has always had those willing to go out "on the edge" so to speak and bring back their findings for the good of the community. You're not willing to do that? And you wonder why the quality of WCK falls with the generations? Maybe its because people are unwilling to share and help others out? Did you not reap the benefits from your "blood, sweat, and injuries"? Isn't that reward enough? Why are you worried about "fair"? No one forces you to come here and discuss. And no one can force you to share what you know. But as a regular in this forum you are a member of a community. Don't you want to help out that community? How is that being "unfair"? What is unfair is attacking the work of someone in your community and tearing down what they do without offering to show or explain what you think is better. How can the community advance and learn otherwise?

[Ultimatewingchun]

watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D93hwx8P9So

William Cheung is so good at this that he makes it look easy. Comes with many years of training where to look, focusing under pressure, and drilling and sparring it again and again.

Because knowing where to look (elbows and knees) is one of the most important things I've ever learned about fighting...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Phil, you know I love you like the brother that you are, but I am going to say something that MAY come off as, well, rude or even "terrence'like".
The fact that it was a demo is NO excuse for doing it the "wrong way".

See what you did is symptomatic of what is wrong with TCMA demos, they are NOT done in a realistic way and as such, give false information and incorrect perception of what is being done.
YOU ( and I am putting the TCMA world on your shoulder and I apologise for that) are the problem and so is your demo.

That said, I think Phil is a HUGE credit to TCMA and WC in particular, he is a guiding force in putting WC out there and is a great guy, friendly, helpful and he was a ****ing Marine !! Simper Fi !!!

Don't take my critique as anything other then me wanting you to do better.

We Cool ?

[t_niehoff]

I guess this post from Terence must have gotten deleted somewhere along the way? So I cut this from goju's response and give my own response, since it was directed at me:

Terence wrote:
What? Are you serious? I can't point out that someone can't play the violin well unless I am willing to post a video of myself playing? Is that your view?

---No. Critics blast someone else's art and performance all the time without being able to actually do the thing themselves. But....they will at least be able to make a far comparison to something directly related in order to show the validity of their criticism. You made a comparison to boxing, not to WCK. I'm not asking you to go out and post your own video. Just point us to someone else's that is better than Phil's! What you say? There aren't any such clips of WCK? I wonder why?

I posted clips where good fighters/trainers were presenting info on the same thing -- like "the cover". And, I explained in detail what was wrong with Phil's clips.

But this is not enough for you? Why do I need to point to someone better than Phil? How does that in any way support what Phil is doing? Does the fact that there is only crap out there make his crap somehow valid?

Let me ask you a question: why do you want video clips in the first place? I don't want or need them. So why do you?

Do you know what I don't think is fair, Keith? For me to spend years working my ass off, taking beating after beating, paying my dues in blood, sweat, injuries, training with the best people I can find, etc. to work out how to make my WCK functional, to then have people who don't really even train, who won't do any work themselves, who won't even seek out people to teach them, who are afraid to walk into a MMA gym, but then believe that I owe it to them to show them how to do it.

---Any endeavor has always had those willing to go out "on the edge" so to speak and bring back their findings for the good of the community. You're not willing to do that? And you wonder why the quality of WCK falls with the generations? Maybe its because people are unwilling to share and help others out?

You misunderstand -- I'm willing to help people out (haven't I said that I'm willing to show them what I do if they visit me?), but those people need to do the work. Tell me, have you put in hundreds of hours sparring at a MMA or MT or boxing gym trying to make your WCK work? Because that is what it takes. There is no other way to make your WCK functional. None. If you aren't willing to do that, no video will help you.

Why is the quality of WCK falling? Because people won't do that work.

Did you not reap the benefits from your "blood, sweat, and injuries"? Isn't that reward enough? Why are you worried about "fair"? No one forces you to come here and discuss. And no one can force you to share what you know. But as a regular in this forum you are a member of a community. Don't you want to help out that community? How is that being "unfair"?

And as I said, I'm willing to help -- serious people. I come here to provide a different POV, one that you don't hear often in WCK circles but is rather common in combative sport circles. I do that because I wish that someone had done that for me many years ago. I wish someone had pointed out all the bullsh1t so that I didn't waste my time. I will share what is the core curriculum of WCK, I'll point out the bullsh1t, and I'll tell you what work you need to do to make that functional. If you are willing to do the work, what more do you need?

What is unfair is attacking the work of someone in your community and tearing down what they do without offering to show or explain what you think is better. How can the community advance and learn otherwise?

Because it is bullsh1t. Doing that stuff is training to fail. I can point out bullsh1t without needing to then present "a better way."

Why is it that more WCK people don't recognize that crap for what it is?

[YungChun]

Because it is bullsh1t. Doing that stuff is training to fail. I can point out bullsh1t without needing to then present "a better way."

Why is it that more WCK people don't recognize that crap for what it is?

Logically the answer is simply because they are not familiar with its opposite..

We can point out problems but without then explaining how to do something correctly the 'student' is left without complete direction... In cases of learning, "Don't do that!" Needs to be accompanied with what to do. Imagine Cesar Millan's students not being specifically shown how to control their dogs, just what not to do..


Now, arguably you do typically explain these things (what to do) but for many these explanations aren't specific enough for whatever the reason.... What's even more disturbing is the almost complete lack of good examples out there--people do need to see good examples too.

[KPM]

It may not be pretty, and it may not be perfect, but I have little doubt that these students of Phil Redmond would have done much much better against the boxer on the clip that started this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr#p/u/134/M1bSkRY3iWI

[YungChun]

VT attacks their structure with ours, THAT is the VT method, not using Boxing, not blocking...etc and this is EXACTLY what I discovered years ago when I was working with Boxers.. We attack their center... Simplicity in time and action IS the right way... Yet you think blocking, which takes nothing away from them and keeps you behind the timing is more "realistic"????

[jesper]

I think you put to much into his statement about hitting the arm. The aim is not to hit the arm per se, but when you punch him you will use your punching arm to "intercept" his arm and thereby either block his means of attacking you or better yet break his structure.
well best way for me to describe it anyways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a81ROzcch3g

Look at Emin around 2 min. Though there may be some differences in actual performance he explains what is being done.

[YungChun]

That is VT's method, attacking their structure..... I don't care what Terence claims or what you claim, that is the f#cking method... The most basic tool used to do that is the punch... Is there more involved, sure, timing, distance, having real structure a real horse, etc... Nevertheless attacking structure is the VT method, it's what sets VT apart from and makes it different from Boxing.. Moreover, it's clear you don't even know what T means when he says hitting their arms, he means attacking their center with his and regardless of who has done what with whom THAT is the method and most experienced VT folks here are well aware of it.