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Thread: how not to fight a boxer

  1. #136
    Joy,

    You and I disagree about much of these things - but I respect your point of view. Must say, however, I don't quite know how these motions you speak of that arent always so detectable and visible are going to make much of a difference: if they're basically small and the structure is always pretty much the same for the wing chun man - how is this going to adversely affect the boxer's ability to time him and know almost all the time where the wing chun man's head and arms are?
    ...............................

    Terence,

    For the time being, I will not repeat the same old arguments with you; but instead, if anyone is taking what you say about my last post seriously, or is confused about any of it - then I refer them to many, many posts wherein I contradict your views and have explained why your logic and arguments don't hold up when examined carefully.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Yes, if you use WCK kickboxing, you will fail.
    .
    I have to disagree against that generalisation. Kickboxing with TWC blocks, training techs and some strategies works quite well in my opinion.

    Its the person who's applying the techniques and you cant compare a seasoned combat sport fighter to a majority of TMA's like you do; rarely do i see a TMA get up in 4am in the morning to do 5 miles, train 2 times a day and do strength training in evening nearly everyday.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niersun View Post
    I have to disagree against that generalisation. Kickboxing with TWC blocks, training techs and some strategies works quite well in my opinion.
    Do you know why kickboxers -- really any sport fighter -- do what they do (use certain techniques, tactics, etc.)? Because they have found through LOADS of experience those things consistently work against all levels of fighters. They know that because they are constantly doing it and can see what works and what doesn't at all levels. So, if you want to kickbox, and you do it enough, you will end up doing what all kickboxers do, because they are doing the things that continue to work -- which also means not doing those things that don't!

    And that is a critical aspect: learning what not to do.

    Why don't you see kickboxers using TWC-like blocks? Because they don't work in kickboxing AND because they create openings for your opponent.

    If TWC has strategies that "work quite well" in kickboxing, then kickboxing will already have those strategies (so you don't need to learn TWC to kickbox). For example, circling away from the rear hand is something all boxers and kickboxers already know.

    WCK isn't kickboxing. If you want to learn to kickbox, then you should go train with good kickboxers.

    Its the person who's applying the techniques and you cant compare a seasoned combat sport fighter to a majority of TMA's like you do; rarely do i see a TMA get up in 4am in the morning to do 5 miles, train 2 times a day and do strength training in evening nearly everyday.
    And even if they did, they would not be able to make much of what they "practice" work. Skill not only comes from how "hard" you practice but also from what you practice. Practice doing things that aren't very good, and no matter how much time you put in, you won't be very good. And that is because what you are practicing is self-limiting (it will only take you so far).

    BTW, you overgeneralize how most sport fighters train. A person's individual skill and conditioning level will depend on how well and much they train -- just like any athlete. If you want to be a world-class athlete, then you have to train like a world class athlete. But not all -- in fact, most -- sport fighters are NOT world-class.

  4. #139
    [QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1072765]Joy,

    You and I disagree about much of these things - but I respect your point of view. Must say, however, I don't quite know how these motions you speak of that arent always so detectable and visible are going to make much of a difference: if they're basically small and the structure is always pretty much the same for the wing chun man - how is this going to adversely affect the boxer's ability to time him and know almost all the time where the wing chun man's head and arms are?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi Victor- we can disagree- it's ok to have different perspectives. The structures of wing chun people vary considerably.And the details of chum kiu motions vary widely.Some motions are more macro and others micro- but they have to be coordinated together and it is possible to work on
    that ina wing chun way. Wing chun is not a stranger to different kinds of timing.

    joy chaudhuri

  5. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Do you know why kickboxers -- really any sport fighter -- do what they do (use certain techniques, tactics, etc.)? Because they have found through LOADS of experience those things consistently work against all levels of fighters. They know that because they are constantly doing it and can see what works and what doesn't at all levels. So, if you want to kickbox, and you do it enough, you will end up doing what all kickboxers do, because they are doing the things that continue to work -- which also means not doing those things that don't!

    And that is a critical aspect: learning what not to do.

    Why don't you see kickboxers using TWC-like blocks? Because they don't work in kickboxing AND because they create openings for your opponent.
    Why then are there large differences between the technique of mt kickboxers and savate kickboxers??

    your argument does not stand up to scrutiny.
    The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
    -sun tzu

  6. #141
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    Same reason the techniques for wrestling and bjj are different. Different rules. Each uses the techniques that are best suited for their rules. For example pulling guard in freestyle or folkstyle wrestling = a pin and a loss.
    Mike

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Do you know why kickboxers -- really any sport fighter -- do what they do (use certain techniques, tactics, etc.)? Because they have found through LOADS of experience those things consistently work against all levels of fighters. They know that because they are constantly doing it and can see what works and what doesn't at all levels. So, if you want to kickbox, and you do it enough, you will end up doing what all kickboxers do, because they are doing the things that continue to work -- which also means not doing those things that don't!

    And that is a critical aspect: learning what not to do.

    Why don't you see kickboxers using TWC-like blocks? Because they don't work in kickboxing AND because they create openings for your opponent.

    If TWC has strategies that "work quite well" in kickboxing, then kickboxing will already have those strategies (so you don't need to learn TWC to kickbox). For example, circling away from the rear hand is something all boxers and kickboxers already know.

    WCK isn't kickboxing. If you want to learn to kickbox, then you should go train with good kickboxers.



    And even if they did, they would not be able to make much of what they "practice" work. Skill not only comes from how "hard" you practice but also from what you practice. Practice doing things that aren't very good, and no matter how much time you put in, you won't be very good. And that is because what you are practicing is self-limiting (it will only take you so far).

    BTW, you overgeneralize how most sport fighters train. A person's individual skill and conditioning level will depend on how well and much they train -- just like any athlete. If you want to be a world-class athlete, then you have to train like a world class athlete. But not all -- in fact, most -- sport fighters are NOT world-class.
    I was talking about using a mixture of Kickboxing and WC to fight. Kickboxing as a sport uses gloves that wont really allow you to block and counter other than Bil Sao, which is still very effective.

    Your words were referenced against boxers was it not. WC Kickboxing will win against a boxer. If someone who has the advantage of using kicks against a person who is solely using the hands, then its not the system that is wrong its the person and there level of allround training, etc.

    Anyhow, i have my views and you have yours and im happy to agree on disagreeing.

    I am happy to be a WC Kickboxer no matter what anyone says (even my seniors). Your legs are your longest and most powerful weapon, should train your kick arsenal as you would your punches.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niersun View Post
    Kickboxing as a sport uses gloves that wont really allow you to block and counter other than Bil Sao, which is still very effective.

    I am happy to be a WC Kickboxer no matter what anyone says (even my seniors).
    No, you are not any type of a kickboxer or you wouldn't have made that stupid block and counter statement.

    There are all sorts of blocks, counters, covers and evasions to be found in both boxing and kickboxing beyond bil sao, gloves or not.
    Mike

  9. #144
    There are two reasons why TWC uses blocks and parries - and none of them have to do with kickboxing. The first is simply defensive: you need to have B's & P's in your arsenal when someone gets an attack off before you can do your offense, ie.- he throws a lead, a cross, a hook, an uppercut, a kick, a combo, a whatever...before you were in position to either avoid the attack completely or to attack him without having to block or parry anything.

    The second is that while you are attempting to punch your way in he gets an attack or a counter attack off - and then a bong, bil, pak, tan, etc. can be used to bridge off so as to continue on your way in with your attack.

    In the first instance, kickboxers and boxers will occasionally also use blocks, parries, and coverups of their own.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 01-16-2011 at 04:42 PM.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawchemical View Post
    Why then are there large differences between the technique of mt kickboxers and savate kickboxers??

    your argument does not stand up to scrutiny.
    There are not large differences in kickboxing technique between MT and savate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH-GR...eature=related

    Do Pennacchio (savate) and Dekker (MT) look very different?

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    There are two reasons why TWC uses blocks and parries -
    No, there is one reason: because Cheung, who created TWC, taught to do it that way.

    and none of them have to do with kickboxing. The first is simply defensive: you need to have B's & P's in your arsenal when someone gets an attack off before you can do your offense, ie.- he throws a lead, a cross, a hook, an uppercut, a kick, a combo, a whatever...before you were in position to either avoid the attack completely or to attack him without having to block or parry anything.
    That DOES have to do with kickboxing. People parry/block because they are trying to deal with their opponent's strikes by parrying/blocking, and that is the "bad kickboxing" way. I call it the "bad kickboxing" way because although kick/boxing has parries/blocks, they don't reach to parry/block as Cheung teaches.

    The WCK method is to be either out of range (of our opponent) or, if in range, actively entering.

    The second is that while you are attempting to punch your way in he gets an attack or a counter attack off - and then a bong, bil, pak, tan, etc. can be used to bridge off so as to continue on your way in with your attack.
    If you are entering and he gets an attack off, then you "smother" it.

    In the first instance, kickboxers and boxers will occasionally also use blocks, parries, and coverups of their own.
    Yes, but not like what TWC does. They do it in ways that are functional.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Its funny but I have a friend that is a boxer and a very good one and another that is a WC guy and has been for about 15 years, they argue all the time about WC VS Boxing and the boxing guy said the samething.
    The WC guy asked how he arrived at that conclusion and the boxer said this:
    In 6 months I can take anyone and make them a decent fighter and by that I mean they go fight full contact and they will be able to hit hard, move well, protected themselves and, given the opportunity, KO another fighter in the ring.
    In other words, most people can become profcient in Boxing in less than a year.
    Can you say the same thing about WC and how it is TYPICALLY taught?

    The answer was silence.
    Found this video of a 3 year old kid doing boxing. I think this kid can give a WC instructor with more that 15 years experience some trouble. LOL.

    http://www.break.com/index/tough-lit...-year-old.html

    Seems like a lot of traditional martial artists who hasn't done any boxing training under estimates boxing.

  13. #148
    Again, Terence....I've refuted your attempts to discredit TWC's functionality (and William Cheung, ie.- you say he "made it up")...numerous times, and no repeat is necessary. All people around here have to do is reference the various posts I've made (and others have made) in order to see that.

    Not interested in your opinions, and that's what they are - about what William Cheung has done.

    What I am interested in is that people see that your arguments about functionality are false. If they're interested - and I suspect that most people by now are not - they can go back and read some of my previous posts that discredit your attacks on TWC.

    But for me, it's time to move on.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by free2flow View Post
    Found this video of a 3 year old kid doing boxing. I think this kid can give a WC instructor with more that 15 years experience some trouble. LOL.

    http://www.break.com/index/tough-lit...-year-old.html

    Seems like a lot of traditional martial artists who hasn't done any boxing training under estimates boxing.
    very true, the point that always makes me laugh is when people say get in close we are a close range style beat them there, as if once past the long range you are safe...the only style i have ever seen teach how to throw hanrd shots and keep on going at close range whilst under fire and taking hard shots is boxing, they dont freeze and reset once in close they keep hitting moving and covering.....close range unattached striking is the hardest thing to master and boxers have it down pat

  15. #150
    I do not underestimate boxing.
    But wing chun gets its short short power in a different way from boxing.It takes good wing chun training to do it..

    joy chaudhuri

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