how not to fight a boxer

[Wu Wei Wu]

Not sure you are being serious or not...
Proper skill leads to proper conditiong, what good is conditioning if you can't do the activity ???
Perhaps you are confusing things like road work and strenght training which are supplementary conditioning with the DIRECT condtioning that is coupled with technical work:
Bag work
Pad work
Sparring.

And don't let my amateur and semi-pro boxing experience at a couple of the top level boxing gyms in Toronto sway you
Seriously.

I'm being deadly serious. Wing Chun is a deadly art and I do it.

Previously you said conditioning comes from skill. Now you say that skill leads to conditioning. And I (once again) say that they are different. A skilled individual is not necessarily a conditioned one. (Whereas your logic suggests that someone with skills IS). One thing does not necessarily lead to the other, just like being skilful at forms does not make someone effective in fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjU6b...eature=channel

In the clip, the old man has technical skills, but lacks (fight) conditioning. The young man however, has the technical skill and has the conditioning to back it up/carry him through a fight, which is the formula that allows him to be effective (along with a highly developed notion of entitlement/desire to win).

There are overlaps; the skill can be made physically challenging (by increasing resistance) to create conditions for conditioning benefits. But to assume that doing a skill can lead to optimal levels of conditioning is naive and breaches principles of efficiency. Why hit bags to get fit, when sprinting will get you there quicker. Punching a bag will only make your muscles and connective tissues stronger upto a threshold. Conditioning by way of e.g. powerlifts following a periodized scheme will take you into the optimal ranges of conditioning.

Conditioning is not skill. They are separate and should be trained using different protocols (the proviso that conditioning should at some stage, be skill specific).

My original point can be illustrated simply; an average boxing school will produce reasonably skilled fighters quicker than an average wing chun school. Which would beg the following question; if I wanted to become an effective fighter in as short a period of time, why would I choose Wing Chun? Esoteric reasons? So that I can practise something 'cool' like Kung Fu? (Or my own reason... to be deadly).

I acknowledge your semi-pro boxing background, but only if you acknowledge my experience having watched some boxing once, on a TV.

Suki

[Vajramusti]

Suki- I thought that you were doing Jesse Glover's version of Bruce Lee's approach?

Clarification - not goading.

joy chaudhuri

[KPM]

Not to disagree with the above, but IIRC Alan is also an advocate of cross training in grappling arts.

No, you remember correctly. Alan credits Eddie Millis of the Shark Tank as his grappling instructor. But what he shows on his DVDs is WCK technique applied for a standing grappling or "Chin Na" situation. His training in grappling gave him a background to see the grappling applications of WCK techniques. If you know what to look for, there are lots of grappling application within the WCK forms. His training for MMA type competitions gave him the "lab" to figure out how to make them work.

[KPM]

That's exactly what we say about TWC. EVERY art should evolve to work against modern day fighters.

I agree Phil! And, IMHO, TWC represents Wing Chun that has evolved to fight more from kickboxing range. But I wouldn't go as far as calling it "kickboxing with Wing Chun" as some in the past have done. So when Victor and Terence were always arguing back and forth, I could see both sides of the argument. They were talking past each other because TWC and Ip Man WCK have different tactical approaches. Terence was always trying to say that TWC was not good Ip Man WCK. And it isn't! Because it wasn't meant to be Ip Man WCK! But TWC is good at what it was designed for. At least that's how I see it!

[Rydis]

im wondering..and im not bashing or anything..maybe just showing my ignorance..but alot of these wing chun videos seem the same. It looks like most just got for a straight forward..very predictable straight jabs to the face..which always seem to ultimately end u looking like just a slap fest of nothing.

Now..ive done a bit of kickboxing and just started learning some Mi Zong Lo Han..and while just looking up stuff..this is all I see from wing chun videos in competitive fighting...and it seems embarrassing. Again not bashing..and if im showing ignorance..I would like to be educated.

[anerlich]

If you know what to look for, there are lots of grappling application within the WCK forms. His training for MMA type competitions gave him the "lab" to figure out how to make them work.

Sure. I used to look for, and reckon I found most, "WC grappling applications in the forms" during my first few years of grappling (I've done BJJ for eleven years, MMA for about three and a half, with some wrestling as well).

It's fun, and I used to think that this would be some sort of shortcut to learning grappling. But I've long since come to the conclusion that trying to view my grappling training through WC coloured glasses hindered rather than helped, after the first few years anyway.

[anerlich]

Again not bashing..and if im showing ignorance..I would like to be educated.

Did you look for any of Alan Orr's students' fights?

They might not look that much like Wing Chun to the ... uneducated, although they (at least in part) are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm being deadly serious. Wing Chun is a deadly art and I do it.

Previously you said conditioning comes from skill. Now you say that skill leads to conditioning. And I (once again) say that they are different. A skilled individual is not necessarily a conditioned one. (Whereas your logic suggests that someone with skills IS). One thing does not necessarily lead to the other, just like being skilful at forms does not make someone effective in fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjU6b...eature=channel

In the clip, the old man has technical skills, but lacks (fight) conditioning. The young man however, has the technical skill and has the conditioning to back it up/carry him through a fight, which is the formula that allows him to be effective (along with a highly developed notion of entitlement/desire to win).

There are overlaps; the skill can be made physically challenging (by increasing resistance) to create conditions for conditioning benefits. But to assume that doing a skill can lead to optimal levels of conditioning is naive and breaches principles of efficiency. Why hit bags to get fit, when sprinting will get you there quicker. Punching a bag will only make your muscles and connective tissues stronger upto a threshold. Conditioning by way of e.g. powerlifts following a periodized scheme will take you into the optimal ranges of conditioning.

Conditioning is not skill. They are separate and should be trained using different protocols (the proviso that conditioning should at some stage, be skill specific).

My original point can be illustrated simply; an average boxing school will produce reasonably skilled fighters quicker than an average wing chun school. Which would beg the following question; if I wanted to become an effective fighter in as short a period of time, why would I choose Wing Chun? Esoteric reasons? So that I can practise something 'cool' like Kung Fu? (Or my own reason... to be deadly).

I acknowledge your semi-pro boxing background, but only if you acknowledge my experience having watched some boxing once, on a TV.

Suki

You seem to be confusing sport specific conditioning like bag work with general conditioning like strength training.
They are two different things.

[Rydis]

Did you look for any of Alan Orr's students' fights?

They might not look that much like Wing Chun to the ... uneducated, although they (at least in part) are.

not that I know of. Im just searching this thread and various others with videos..and they all seem to just have the same pattern. They rush in with the head pulled back going for striaght quick jabs to the face..which ends up looking like two little kinds trying to slap eachother in the face and not knowing what they are doing at all.

I understand I dont know wing chun at all, and that much of tma are really for sprots competition..but compared to other kung fu fights, or even tma sports competition..alot of these videos are like like..wtf are they doing..and its only 1 type of attack...with an occasional unneeded knee block.

[kungfoozer]

Unfortunately what Alan Or does is not representative of what most of the wc videos out there show. Actually if you put Alan Or's fights in a clip with other mma fights, showed them to a random audience and asked them to pick out the video that looked different, they would not be able to. Why? Because Alan Or does mma and looks like every other mma guy when he fights. Just because he has been brainwashed by a teacher into thinking that what he mainly does is wc does not mean he is doing that. If Alan had not studied wrestling and bjj he would not be doing well in mma right now. So is his success due to his mma background or because he practiced si lum tao for 8 hours like Yip Man did?


So how do you train grappling Joy? What different "chi sao drills" do you do that do not look like the same as the others?

[LoneTiger108]

Now..ive done a bit of kickboxing and just started learning some Mi Zong Lo Han..and while just looking up stuff..this is all I see from wing chun videos in competitive fighting...and it seems embarrassing. Again not bashing..and if im showing ignorance..I would like to be educated.

There is a saying that goes something like "Those who shout the loudest have nothing" which may help you understand why you will not find that many decent Wing Chun 'competitive' clips on Youtube. There are plenty of good clips of Wing Chun, but not so many reflecting Wing Chun in fighting competitions. I have a small collection of 'non-fighting' clips on Youtube too if you're interested:
http://www.youtube.com/user/yumyeurng108

I would suggest forgetting what happens here and in online videos and find a local school to visit and see for yourself.

Out of interest, do you actually want to learn Wing Chun?

[kungfoozer]

There is a saying that goes something like "Those who shout the loudest have nothing" which may help you understand why you will not find that many decent Wing Chun 'competitive' clips on Youtube. There are plenty of good clips of Wing Chun, but not so many reflecting Wing Chun in fighting competitions. I have a small collection of 'non-fighting' clips on Youtube too if you're interested:
http://www.youtube.com/user/yumyeurng108

I would suggest forgetting what happens here and in online videos and find a local school to visit and see for yourself.

Out of interest, do you actually want to learn Wing Chun?

Why would he want to do that? All he has to do is watch the forms done on youtube along with all the hand drills which seem to be standard in most wc schools. I have not studied wc and could probably learn all those two dimensional drills in a week. That will make me good at doing those drills but not at fighting which brings me to your point of not finding decent wc competition videos. Are you saying that they talk the loudest and then do not post comp vids because they are bad or are you saying that wc in comps is bs?

Your clips are the same as all the other wc clips around. Why even bother posting them?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=kungfoozer;

So how do you train grappling Joy? What different "chi sao drills" do you do that do not look like the same as the others?[/QUOTE]
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. I have not studied wc and could probably learn all those two dimensional drills in a week. That will make me good at doing those drills
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kungfoozer- you and I don't really have much to talk about.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Why would he want to do that? All he has to do is watch the forms done on youtube along with all the hand drills which seem to be standard in most wc schools. I have not studied wc and could probably learn all those two dimensional drills in a week. That will make me good at doing those drills but not at fighting which brings me to your point of not finding decent wc competition videos.

Are you serious?

If so, then I can't help you. No Sifu who has trained people for over 50 years can help you!! You already know everything from watching and copying a few Youtube clips (that are already pretty bad quality)

Next thing you're gonna tell me is that you teach what you've copied to your mates but it still doesn't work right?

Are you saying that they talk the loudest and then do not post comp vids because they are bad or are you saying that wc in comps is bs?

I'm not saying anything. It's just an old expression.

Personally, for me, Wing Chun is not meant to be used in competitions but I do understand the temptation to think proving you can score points or a knockout means what you do is the 'best' stuff since sliced bread.

If that's what people are into, I send them to local clubs that train for that purpose. I'm not interested in fighting like a scrub/pub brawler.

Your clips are the same as all the other wc clips around. Why even bother posting them?

I disagree. Some are, yes, but most have been selected for their authenticity and quality. And some have their own uniqueness imho.

[Rydis]

There is a saying that goes something like "Those who shout the loudest have nothing" which may help you understand why you will not find that many decent Wing Chun 'competitive' clips on Youtube. There are plenty of good clips of Wing Chun, but not so many reflecting Wing Chun in fighting competitions. I have a small collection of 'non-fighting' clips on Youtube too if you're interested:
http://www.youtube.com/user/yumyeurng108

I would suggest forgetting what happens here and in online videos and find a local school to visit and see for yourself.

Out of interest, do you actually want to learn Wing Chun?

Nah, I think im going to stick with Mi zhong lo han/kickboxing for now. Im not in for competition, just something to pass the time for now. I was just curious as ive seen various styles, from capoiera, various other kung fu, tae kwon do, and even though alot of them are favored for sport competition, still have some semblance of tactic or know what they are doing even if its not useful.

Watching these Wing Chun..just seems god awful, like its a few people who watch movies and mimic stuff and just comes off really bad. Like I said.. didn't want to paint the entire wc style with what ive seen in clips which is why I asked.