how not to fight a boxer

[YungChun]

I read that as a fudge.. Bruce may well have been using (returning to) all kinds of "things" but at the end his POV was anti-style regardless of what his methods were..

[JPinAZ]

I think Jim stated his case quite clearly in his original post. It is down to an individual's training and the kind of people they are training against. Along the lines of what Terence consistently posts (shock horror!)

And I totally agree that who and how you train is important. Not sure your point?

[JPinAZ]

No, you can't. And trying to "bridge" to an attack is extremely low percentage.

Only if you read 'bridge' as chasing hands. This is not how I mean it. But then, I don't expect a moron like you to understand what I'm talking about. How many years did you waste not making WCK work again? 17+? yeah, like you'[d understand anything about WCK...

That's a great theory, only it won't work like that. You will never be able to "bridge with the attack using proper structure, facing and leverage"-- that is a fantasy. His action is too fast, too unpredictable, etc.

Now you're assuming I'm not talking from experience or that I'd try to match speed for speed. You have no clue what I'm talking about. Go troll someone else.

If you are in an opponent's striking range, you won't be able to stop him from hitting you unless he is a scrub.

Troll troll troll along....

That all depends on what that training is.

You still talking? Go sit in the corner, gossip queen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't suggest "bridging" VS a Boxer unless you want to turn it into a clinch fight or grappling.
Boxing doesn't lend itself to being "bridged" for the purpose of striking.
Of course there is no rule against it and I would assume that, training with good boxers and developing a way to bridge with boxers, that it would work well with most.
Still, boxing hand and footwork tend to nullify "bridging" very well, or at least this has been my experience.

[Vajramusti]

I don't suggest "bridging" VS a Boxer unless you want to turn it into a clinch fight or grappling.
Boxing doesn't lend itself to being "bridged" for the purpose of striking.
Of course there is no rule against it and I would assume that, training with good boxers and developing a way to bridge with boxers, that it would work well with most.
Still, boxing hand and footwork tend to nullify "bridging" very well, or at least this has been my experience.

----------------------------------
Yup. A good boxer should not be underestimated. They can "squirm" and hit. They also understand leverage.
In a different way wrestlers also can adjust.

Takes good level wing chun to deal with them.

joy chaudhuri

[JPinAZ]

I said what I wrote.. That it's much easier to pay lip service to this kind of stuff..

And that not many VT people are training like boxers... Because if they were you wouldn't hear the theory you'd see the fighting..

Most VT people are not actively fighting at all let alone with dozens of good boxers, I mean let's try to keep this just a little real...

Most people don't have access to LOT'S of good boxers... Most VTers are not fighting lots of good anythings...

That's fine, but how do you know how 'most VT people' are training?
And I'm not trying to argue here, but really, what should we care how others that we don't even know are training? Aren't only our own skills in the given situation what matters? (unless we are also teaching, then the skills of our students matter)

Really though, my original reply was to Keith when he said this: The problem is closing the gap so that you can make good use of your WCK. Bruce Lee recognized this problem and I think it was one of the factors leading to the creation of JKD. If you want to kickbox with a WCK "flavor", study some JKD! But don't try to make WCK into something it is not....because it doesn't work very well ......as most of these clips on the internet will attest!!

And I'll repeat, I don't see this same 'problem' in WCK or in my training.
And, I don't go by the little evidence you see, or that he sees on the internet, only my results are what count (at least to me). yeah, I'd agree, that a lot of the WCK you see in vids isn't up to my fighting standards, but then I don't look to the internet for validation that WCK works. And hopefully you're not saying you do

[KPM]

Really though, my original reply was to Keith when he said this: The problem is closing the gap so that you can make good use of your WCK. Bruce Lee recognized this problem and I think it was one of the factors leading to the creation of JKD. If you want to kickbox with a WCK "flavor", study some JKD! But don't try to make WCK into something it is not....because it doesn't work very well ......as most of these clips on the internet will attest!!

And I'll repeat, I don't see this same 'problem' in WCK or in my training.
And, I don't go by the little evidence you see, or that he sees on the internet, only my results are what count (at least to me). yeah, I'd agree, that a lot of the WCK you see in vids isn't up to my fighting standards, but then I don't look to the internet for validation that WCK works. And hopefully you're not saying you do

Hey JP!

Those are fair statements. But it does kind of beg the question.....why don't we see ANY clips of Hung Fa Yi anywhere? HFY uses a different set of terms than the rest of us. It would be nice to see some clips showing exactly what a lot of the talk refers to.

[KPM]

I don't suggest "bridging" VS a Boxer unless you want to turn it into a clinch fight or grappling.
Boxing doesn't lend itself to being "bridged" for the purpose of striking.
Of course there is no rule against it and I would assume that, training with good boxers and developing a way to bridge with boxers, that it would work well with most.
Still, boxing hand and footwork tend to nullify "bridging" very well, or at least this has been my experience.

Where are Kevin Gledhill or Graham H? It seems to me, given Sanjuro's well-founded conclusions above about fighting a boxer, one of the better WCK approaches would be what they have been talking about learning from Phillip Bayer. Of course, I could have it completely wrong since I have not trained with Phillip Bayer myself. So here is my interpretation for the "boxer" situation:

Be aggressive and charge in with chain punching. But be smart and use angling and leverage to your best advantage and to limit his ability to follow up. Use defensive motions to stop his punches but with very brief contact in conjunction with your own striking barrage. Don't try to "trap" or "bridge", because he isn't going to leave an arm out there long enough for this. Keep moving forward into his center to limit his ability to use his evasive footwork. Close and finish, don't try to play his game of dancing in and out.

[CFT]

And I totally agree that who and how you train is important. Not sure your point?

You seemed to have missed what Jim was saying in your post.

It appeared from your post that you thought Jim was saying there was some kind of fundamental deficiency in WCK itself, rather than the individual or the training regime.

[JPinAZ]

Hey JP!

Those are fair statements. But it does kind of beg the question.....why don't we see ANY clips of Hung Fa Yi anywhere? HFY uses a different set of terms than the rest of us. It would be nice to see some clips showing exactly what a lot of the talk refers to.

Keith, that is a fair question, and something that is being worked on as we speak

But personally, I don't think that videos are the best way to demonstrate an art, first hand knowledge is. What is it people would really want to see? A demonstration, sparring, etc? Any of those can be argued 'well, that's a static demonstration', or the T response 'the other guy is a total scrub', even if he's not. This, IMO, is the problem if someone wants to see an art solely thru video. While yeah, videos are nice to give a glips on how something looks, it doesn't really tell you anything important like how things work.

Now, this isn't a sales pitch, but HFY has and has had many public workshops around the country and world for the past 12 years or so. What area do you live in?

[JPinAZ]

Be aggressive and charge in with chain punching.

While I would totally disagree with the charging in with chain punching..

But be smart and use angling and leverage to your best advantage and to limit his ability to follow up. Use defensive motions to stop his punches but with very brief contact in conjunction with your own striking barrage.

This is pretty much exactly what I have been talking about!

Don't try to "trap" or "bridge", because he isn't going to leave an arm out there long enough for this. Keep moving forward into his center to limit his ability to use his evasive footwork. Close and finish, don't try to play his game of dancing in and out.

And I totally agree. Trying to trap or bridge would be chasing hands. But covering your space with good structure when a punch comes in, if a bridge happens, so be it

IMO, any time you used "defensive motions to stop his punches but with very brief contact" you are 'bridging'. When I say bridging, I'm not talking prolonged sticking like in chi sau. That, to me, is chasing hands or chasing the bridge. I think some people here might view 'bridging' as some prolonged attempt at sticking like chi sau drilling (?) For me, it simply means when contact is made with which I can effect my opponent's attack and/or COG/COM, however brief.

[t_niehoff]

Only if you read 'bridge' as chasing hands. This is not how I mean it. But then, I don't expect a moron like you to understand what I'm talking about. How many years did you waste not making WCK work again? 17+? yeah, like you'[d understand anything about WCK...

Oh, the dreaded "rolls eyes" again! LOL!

If what you describe is "chasing hands" then don't be surprised that someone would read it that way.

Now you're assuming I'm not talking from experience or that I'd try to match speed for speed. You have no clue what I'm talking about. Go troll someone else.

You are not making what you describe work in sparring with decently skilled people. You may be able to pull it off against your classmates who are cooperating with you to let you do it.

If you think that I don't have the wrong idea of what you are doing, you could explain it to me.

Troll troll troll along....

If you are in someone's striking range, then you had already better be closing them down BEFORE they strike or you won't be able to stop their strike. It takes ANYONE 0.20 seconds to BEGIN to respond to a stimulus. That is how we are "hard wired." You can't change it with training or anything. Someone in range and with decent speed can hit you or get their strike almost to you in under that time (0.20 seconds).

Nor can you in that time-frame "bridge with the attack using proper structure, facing and leverage" -- things happen too fast. If you are caught "in range" by a strike, there are only very limited things you can do.

If you had experience realistically sparring, then you would have seen that for yourself.

[t_niehoff]

Trying to trap or bridge would be chasing hands. But covering your space with good structure when a punch comes in, if a bridge happens, so be it

What do you mean "cover your space"? You can, if you have a decent guard, cover the target, but that won't create a bridge.

IMO, any time you used "defensive motions to stop his punches but with very brief contact" you are 'bridging'. When I say bridging, I'm not talking prolonged sticking like in chi sau. That, to me, is chasing hands or chasing the bridge. I think some people here might view 'bridging' as some prolonged attempt at sticking like chi sau drilling (?) For me, it simply means when contact is made with which I can effect my opponent's attack and/or COG/COM, however brief.

No. Contact alone is not "a bridge". A bridge is the connection (from your center) to your opponent's center. Covering may block his attack but does not create a bridge.

[IRONMONK]

. Trying to trap or bridge would be chasing hands. But covering your space with good structure when a punch comes in, if a bridge happens, so be it

Whn I land a punch on my opponent I consider that as a "bridge"

[Wayfaring]

I don't suggest "bridging" VS a Boxer unless you want to turn it into a clinch fight or grappling.

Oh, but I do.

There's a very small percentage of boxers for which this is not a good idea.