how not to fight a boxer

[Frost]

I don’t actually have a problem with that argument as such (I mean its bull you know it and I know it) BUT it at least is an argument for why there’s no clips out there from these guys

MY problem is with people who say this or that clip is bad and not good wing chun and not good representation of wing chun and that with good training (like they have ben exposed to) it should look like this: you should be able to enter easily and control the opponent and lamp him with elbows and punches whilst you off balance him blah blah blah but THEN say oh wait the real guys cant be bothered putting clips up, as they have nothing to prove and better things to do if that’s the case why bother typing a response in the first fecking place

[LoneTiger108]

How hard is it to set a video up and press record, you don’t have to set up special fights just record normal sparring sessions

I used to do this all the time when I first started coaching, as a self assessment tool for both myself and the students. But we never sparred really, just practised the basic foundation.

You have to realize that this was all on tape, so to even transfer onto the PC takes far too much space and time! I'm now pushing the HD/Digital and building a small coleection of personal training 'experiences' which I will share once I feel the time is right.

As for sparring, I've had interest in the BCCMA Sanshou comp this year and may look at helping a few Wing Chun guys enter as we have had no representation at all in these formal comps for years. Mainly Lau Gar and others who end up kickboxing their way to the finals! Good fighters imo, but also some very low level ones too.

FWIW Nobody is allowed to film these things either, when I was involved, as the BCCMA have their own crew who produce a DVD for members to buy (which is copyrighted too so you couldn't share it anyway!)

[Frost]

I used to do this all the time when I first started coaching, as a self assessment tool for both myself and the students. But we never sparred really, just practised the basic foundation.

You have to realize that this was all on tape, so to even transfer onto the PC takes far too much space and time! I'm now pushing the HD/Digital and building a small coleection of personal training 'experiences' which I will share once I feel the time is right.

As for sparring, I've had interest in the BCCMA Sanshou comp this year and may look at helping a few Wing Chun guys enter as we have had no representation at all in these formal comps for years. Mainly Lau Gar and others who end up kickboxing their way to the finals! Good fighters imo, but also some very low level ones too.

FWIW Nobody is allowed to film these things either, when I was involved, as the BCCMA have their own crew who produce a DVD for members to buy (which is copyrighted too so you couldn't share it anyway!)

Lol you are talking to former senior black sash in Lau Gar here so watch what you say )

On a side note I remember entering the nationals in sticky hands fighting because some of the guardians were worried it was becoming too much like kick boxing without gloves and they wanted some of us seniors to show how it was done properly with control and good technique…. the first time my opponent got through my guard he chipped a tooth and blooded up my nose and I saw stars…. lol it became a lot like bare knuckle kick boxing from then on

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one expects "average joe" to video himself sparring and post it.
We are truly addressing this to those that HAVE posted videos or done instructional series, and there are a lot of them out there.

[TenTigers]

You run a full time school (as do a fair few wing chun teachers I bet) and yet you don’t have the time to record any sparring matches that happen within the school or any of the competition fights your guys do? What is it with kung fu schools do cameras not work in them? Can’t they see the advertising advantage of doing this? And while I’m at it how come it’s only the schools that suck that manage to actually put out sparring clips but not the good schools?

One of the MMA gyms I attend is also full time, and is very very busy (the two coaches run the gym, delivery privates and teach around the country, run a team of fighters and a grappling team as well) yet they manage to not only record the fights their guys take part in, as well as the inter club grappling comps they run AND the grappling comps they attend, hell they even manage to record a typical weeks training and put the clip out on youtube: which includes sparring, grappling and drills (shock horror) Why because they realise its great publicity to do so and a great way to advertise and get new students

How hard is it to set a video up and press record, you don’t have to set up special fights just record normal sparring sessions

That's kinda what I was getting at. (although I meant it in a humorous way, it still holds true for me) For me, it's a personal issue I've been struggling with for a long time. Procrastination, inconsistancy, motivation. I have trouble getting out of my own way sometimes.
I seriously have written a dozen articles, but never got around to submitting them.
As far as videos, I have just moved to a new location, after suffering a near bankruptcy-I was down to a handfull of students, now building it back up.(thankfully, I have a business partner who now runs the administrative aspect. Apparantly, passion alone isn't sufficient)
I have a small group of guys and will be video taping them soon. So far, my guys have done well in continuous sparring, and are getting ready for a better challenge, and one has fought and won in the first amature MMA event in Thailand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oBEeHw1RzE
(at this time, he really focuses on MT, and helps with our san-shou/san-da classes)
I will put up some vids after Chinese New Year. (Priorities.)

[YungChun]

No one expects "average joe" to video himself sparring and post it.
We are truly addressing this to those that HAVE posted videos or done instructional series, and there are a lot of them out there.

The problem is the nature of the system the curriculum..

What you will see posted is what people train.. People train GorSao/ChiSao and that's what you see posted... The problem lies in the focus on repeating the curriculum over and over again instead of a focus on completing the basics and then using sparring as the core learning tool, and by sparring I mean sparring that involves VT sparring NON VT....

And since the focus in NOT on going outside the kwoon you don't see it and you also don't see many teachers with that experience either and so they can't pass that on to the students..

[TenTigers]

ok, so in keeping this topic on track, what WCK techniques and methods have you found to be successful vs boxing?
What has worked for you? What has NOT worked, and perhaps through brainstorming and sharing, people can come up with possible solutions?
After all, isn't that the idea of these forums? Or is it simply for mudslinging?

[YungChun]

ok, so in keeping this topic on track, what WCK techniques and methods have you found to be successful vs boxing?
What has worked for you? What has NOT worked, and perhaps through brainstorming and sharing, people can come up with possible solutions?
After all, isn't that the idea of these forums? Or is it simply for mudslinging?

I think that's been covered from all sides....including mud slinging afterward..

You don't see agreement on the method and discussion breaks down.

VT's method is to enter and break them down/disrupt and control while bashing them...

Until people do that then IMO you'll only see them chasing people around with chain punches...

The only way to find out is to actually do it and leave behind the idea of staying inside the safe, dull kwoon doing drills and forms forever..

Remember the old Kung-Fu series? It may be fiction but the message was correct, remember what they said? When you can take the pebble from my hand it will be time for you to leave...!

They kicked them out.. That's what VT needs to do or some variation.. Give your student some gear as a graduation present and kick them out!

[TenTigers]

VT's method is to enter and break them down/disrupt and control while bashing them...

ok, so let's get specific;
which methods do you use?
As I said before, some schools use kwun-sao, bong-sao, TWC's"entry technique" etc.

[m1k3]

I soak my head in harsh chemicals and then pound my face with a rubber mallet to develop iron head skills.

Then when I fight a boxer I fight with my hands down so that he can break his fist on my iron face.

Bwahahahahahahaha.

[YungChun]

ok, so let's get specific;
which methods do you use?
As I said before, some schools use kwun-sao, bong-sao, TWC's"entry technique" etc.

It's not so much in the what as in the how IMO.... The classical way IMO is to attack their attack, but the timing/distance must be correct.. We use the strike to whack their structure and make a bridge.. But whatever tool you use it must take something away from them, it must make a connection to their core, it must break them down, not just block and play with their hands from outside, or chase them around with chain punches. But to break them down you need real structure and real power and a real horse and put the time in.

But there is more to it.. You can't give people step by step instructions on fighting they have to do it themselves..

Also I don't claim to have extensive experience fighting lots of boxers, just a modicum of experience sparring with a couple (of good ones) who I taught some VT.

What I found was that trying to gain position/land from outside was the wrong way to go... The key for me was to attack their attack, as in their jab for example in order to interrupt their timing, disrupt them etc..but there is more than one way to go.. But you must do some variation of this in order to enter into VT's range and stay there until you can finish.. How you set this up, how you move on the outside, etc must be learned from experience...

We generally don't want to just chase them around or wait for them.. The key to VT is in breaking them down, energizing their core with our tools and body power--this is what makes VT different from boxing our tools are supposed to break structure. Without this aspect all you have is a very peculiar boxing style that doesn't work very well and people then adding in boxing in order to fill the 'gaps', etc...

[LoneTiger108]

Lol you are talking to former senior black sash in Lau Gar here so watch what you say )

Well, some of these fighters I mention are considered the pioneers of sanshou in the UK and they are not the low level guys I'm talking of!

On a side note I remember entering the nationals in sticky hands fighting because some of the guardians were worried it was becoming too much like kick boxing without gloves and they wanted some of us seniors to show how it was done properly with control and good technique…. the first time my opponent got through my guard he chipped a tooth and blooded up my nose and I saw stars…. lol it became a lot like bare knuckle kick boxing from then on

One of the reasons myself and my seniors avoid going back to the 'old days' (1980's) of Club Vs Club Wing Chun comps that literally ended up as blood baths! I know it sounds cliche, and I've only heard the stories, but it WAS crazy back then! Far too many bloody accounts from too many sources for it to be lies imo. And from what I heard, these fights were 10x harder and more vicious than any HK roof top encounter!! At that time I was in my early teens and witnessed the adult Shotokan Kumite comps and see enough blood from, so-called, "slips of the fist!", to understand it aint really worth it. Or it wasn't back then when practically anything was okay and imbedded teeth in knuckles was the norm.

And that's why I respect what the guys have done with the BCCMA Sanshou comps. They are safe and clean with a rack load of senior advisers. And their Shuai Jiao has a good rep too internationally. We were also asked to look into Chisau comps for them a few years back, but refused because they thought other styles could enter too. "It's really not that simple" we said, so they didn't go ahead. Besides, we all knew sanshou was the format for TCMA so they just built on that.

It's going to be an interesting year for me as it will be good to take some decent guys through if they decide it's worth the time and financial investment. I personally train a bit of cardio anyway and our Wing Chun sessions have never been shy of sweat! Just need to add on the 'sparring' to see what they can do, but I don't believe it's really needed like everyone here thinks. Maybe if they are to project a solid Wing Chun image they just need confidence. Like I've always said, fight a WCK fight and it really doesn't matter if you lose. Just carry on and improve using your WCK as best you can.

I also boxed a lot when I was a kid but even before that had won point light contact kumite championships without ever sparring beforehand. My old sensei said "you can either fight or you can't" and I suppose I could way back then. We never sparred in training, it was all very traditional Shotokan. Kinda like my Wing Chun training too. My WCK Sifu used to say "why fight for nothing but a plastic medal? If you wanna fight, at least earn the money!" And FWIW when I went boxing I had to be taken pout of the sparring sessions because I wanted to win and their 'champ' fighter moaned that I hit like a brick! But he clubbed me some bricks too from my own memory and took the pi$$ because I was going easy Just trained and trained after that and had to learn about 'gears' and driving my boxing. Pretty cool stuff but still, a long time ago.

And so, there it is. I'm a little too 'responsible' to enter the arena myself as I have a public facing job and kids and a wife! But that doesn't mean I can't train a decent Wing Chun fighter and make a good sparring partner out of myself. Does it?

Just keep to your own game is my only advice, whether you fight a boxer or a Lau Gar dude!

[jesper]

Sorry Jesper, but Robert was talking about teaching, or finish teaching a student Wing Chun in 3moths to a year. Thankfully, chain punching isn't all Wing Chun has to offer.

Ofcourse Chainpunching isnt all it has to offer. its a beginners way to fight relatively efficient.

As for how long it takes to teach WCK. I would say if he trains 5-6 days a week He should be able to learn it in 1½-2 years. Emphasis here on learn, not mastering which will take a lifetime.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not sure why the rag on chain punching, hitting a guy a bunch of times into submission is what boxing is all about, at ANY level !

[YungChun]

Not sure why the rag on chain punching, hitting a guy a bunch of times into submission is what boxing is all about, at ANY level !

Because it doesn't take 10 years (or even 10 hours) to learn how to CP.

Moreover, CPing represents 90% of what you see people do yet it's 10% of the art or less...

Shall I keep going?