Pak Sau Alternatives?

[imperialtaichi]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John

[Vajramusti]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John

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Thanks for your views on pak sao and alternatives.
Pak sao can also mess up structure and balance and "smash". There are all sorts of combinations with elbows-provided the distance for the elbows is good.

joy chaudhuri

[YungChun]

Lots of options. PakDa was too far out--I would be moving into him...

That pak was weak.. Step in with it, move the horse in, move him and see what happens... FanSao..

Lots of other tools you can use... Try the punch first and move into his space, then pak...or another tool...AND attack below with your horse as you step in, BuiMa or whatever....

[k gledhill]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John

Dont take this the wrong way, but its all wrong.
1st the punch cant even reach the jaw with any bend in the arm to deliver force to it. iow move in [your going to keep going ...] thats just the punch. Have the guy stand close enough that his arm can hit your jaw with force to move your head backwards, it will be bent.
then slap the arm but dont 'hold hands' let the impetus of the pak make a 1-2 " gap for the following striking arm, the arm striking takes over the lead line from pak, pak retracts to make another strike instantly....
2nd because you cant reach you are simply offering a fully extended 'lever', making it easy [one of our goals] to turn the opponent...

the leading centered elbow makes the pak sao staying on the arm to control it redundant, iow your wasting your pak hand by over-trapping , when the leading striking arm following SHOULD take over the leading attacking action and create a barrier with its forearm that makes another hand redundant...2 hands dont need to fight one.
The leading arm, through alignment drilling in chi-sao should form a solid line of force as it strikes, bent, and utilizing the body weight and stability in the 3 actions at once idea.

no momentum inwards.....

your doing pak / lan sao to compensate for inability to use your lead striking arm, iow you dont have the fixed elbow ideas of VT.

ill try to post something myself to explain....

[n.mitch]

The punch with the pak will.reach if the opponent is stepping in with the punch, another good idea is to punch of the pak hand , using the idle hand, its a bit faster and has.more reach, using a running pak or guiding hand

[KPM]

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John

Good clip! You are absolutely right about the Pak Da....the way you demonstrate it. But what you are showing is a pretty poor "classic" Pak Da! You are not closing with the opponent or collapsing his structure. So of course it leaves you vulnerable to his counter. Your alternative looks far more effective...because you are moving in and to his side and turning the opponent to break his structure. But one can "really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them"....as you say....with the "classic" Pak Da....when done properly.

[sihing]

First John props for sharin your vid & your ideas and explainations, a moving picture is worth more than a million words, so good on you

Like the others have said, the way I would use pak da would be different from what was showed in your vid. All actions go towards that opponents spine to off balance him, so when a bridge is developed like in a pak sau, thru the contact point you attack the spine (center axis). Like Kevin G explain, the next attack would immediately come thru and take over that line with enough structure behind it to handle any interruption that opponent might give you, as I quote Kev ,"the leading striking arm following SHOULD take over the leading attacking action and create a barrier with its forearm that makes another hand redundant...2 hands dont need to fight one.
The leading arm, through alignment drilling in chi-sao should form a solid line of force as it strikes, bent, and utilizing the body weight and stability in the 3 actions at once idea." It sounds like fantasy, but when you learn the method it works, or allows you to pull this off.

One alternative that I have learned, as there are many, is to use what I call a "cutting" striking action. In your clip your partner throws a right jab, instead of pak'g with your left hand just strike over top with a bent arm, via fok sau training. We perfect this idea in our pak sau drill, learning the right angle, stepping and facing.

Now here's a clip that Ernie (my VT coach) made when I visited him in LA 09', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shePFekjsC8 , in some of it there are 3 frames going at once. In the beginning of the clip, watch the middle frame, he's explaining (sorry no sound on the clip) how to do it to Craig, then at :06 he does it till :032. Notice first how he always finishes with a push, our way of projecting our structure into our partners, a training method which works our horse, then he gets me (I'm his partner in the drill) to followup attack from various angles, so as to learn what to do if it's a combo attack (which is likely what is going to happen). At :44 second in the clip, the right side frame is where we bring realizm to this idea, here I am feeding lead jabs to Craig and he's cutting the jab with his strike and entering in with follow up, a isolated sparring drill (take it easy on us, as we were just learning this that day). Again notice how Craig is staying in striking range and forcing me back, taking my structure out of play and putting me way on the defensive. The clips also shows some of our laap sau drill and chasing drills.

Regarding your alternative you put yourself out of your own "VT frame" as I like to put it, your facing his back and way inside, clinchin range. At this space it's take down time IMO, and from there you GNP which is good as well. I wouldn't stay and strike from a standing position much from that position/range with a VT type method. Of course one can stay and strike if they want, as the are some vulnerable areas, but the opponent, still being on his feet has the option to just run out of range as now his back is given.

Thanks again for sharin,

James

[Hendrik]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John

John,

Thanks for sharing.

in my opinion, i think we need to clearly define what is static structure, dynamic structure, momentum, and force intensity. So that we are clear on what we are sharing.

static structure, dynamic structure, momentum, and force intensity are different things.



I think this is the time to introduce: ( in mandarin)

Destroy structure ( Hui Shing) Broken momentum ( Po Shih) and Cancel Force (Siau Jin).


For example,

pak, according to the old classical TCMA is target for canceling the force intensity. this is a fast and lite type of tool.

breaking the structure, static or dynamic needs a Handling tool which is heavier and slower type of tool then the pak type. IE: tok sau or up lifting hand, whichm "hold" and scoop up the elbow and totally offset the structure.

handling momentum needs a redirect type of adaptive tool which because it is dealing with something in motion. IE: bong which lead what is move in roll over/off.


and sure, beside a pure use of each individual tool above, one could combine them.

However, different tool has different purpose. and if the above is not clearly define we could easily confuse between breaking structure, handling momentum, or cancel force intensity.

[k gledhill]

That is jum sao strike, cutting across the arm ...
same 'energy' as pak sao.

[Hendrik]

That is jum sao strike, cutting across the arm ...
same 'energy' as pak sao.

IMHO,
nope, different types.

Pak is suppose to cancel the force intensity so even if one doesnt move a way the force intensity is reduce big time at the spot of execution.

Jum sao is like the ice breaking ship which drive and cut into the opponent's structure using his forward moving momentum.


So, in case one want to use a Pak + or Pak combination to break structure, one need another tool which team up with Pak to do the job. Putting entire body behind Pak doesnt increase the effectiveness of Pak much. Pak's characteristic doesnt do drive and cut into opponent's structure.

[YouKnowWho]

In a combat situation, your opponent's body will keep moving toward you even after you have redirect his punch. The distance will be much closer than the distance as shown in that clip. It will be a clinching range instead of a punching range.

Pak Sau is conservation approach. You just redirect your opponent's arm away but you have not taken advantage on it. In a real fight, it's not that easy for your arm is touching your opponent's arm (build an arm bridge), if you can control that arm after that and use that arm to jam your opponent's back arm, you can finish your fight much quicker.

[imperialtaichi]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for the comments, they are most instructive.

Yes, I should better change the title of the clip to "How NOT to do Pak Sau." Which I will do right now.

Cheers,
John

[YouKnowWho]

I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

In this clip, you use your palm to deflect your opponent's punch with your "虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" face toward yourself. If you put your "虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" to face toward your opponent (like holding a baseball bat), you will have much better control on your opponent's elbow joint. A better arm control can help you to "really screw up your opponent's structure and balance and ...".

.

[Violent Designs]

Boxers use "pak sao" pretty much all day long.

Better than any other styles I've seen in comparison.

[imperialtaichi]

Hey Guys,

Have an idea, but only if you would like to participate.

Just post your favorite Pak Sau (or Pak Sau looking) youtube clips here, can be your own, can be someone else's, can be other styles; can also be totally crap ones (which would be fun).... and I will create a playlist on my channel called "KFMag Forum Paks Do's and Dont's" in a few days.

It will be a fun great discussion starter.

Cheers,
John