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Thread: The Risk of Wing Chun Bong-Sau

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  1. #1
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    The Risk of Wing Chun Bong-Sau

    The Wing Chun Bong-Sau is just like the

    - XingYi half step Beng Chuan (move leading leg first),
    - Bagua circle walking (cross legs),

    the safety issue always concern me.

    Old Chinese saying said, "拳不露肘(Quan Bu Lu Zhou) - never expose your elbow to your opponent". When you apply the 詠春膀手(Wing Chun Bong-Sau), you expose your elbow joint to your opponent. This will give your opponent a chance to put one hand under your elbow, and another hand on your fore-arm, and rotate your arm into an elbow locking position as shown in the following clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtBljSfkfR8

    Do you agree with the principle, "拳不露肘(Quan Bu Lu Zhou) - never expose your elbow to your opponent"? How would you make your Bong-Sau safer to apply if you have to use it?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-24-2011 at 01:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The Wing Chun Bong-Sau is just like the

    - XingYi half step Beng Chuan (move leading leg first),
    - Bagua circle walking (cross legs),

    the safety issue also concern me.

    Old Chinese saying said, "拳不露肘(Quan Bu Lu Zhou) - never expose your elbow to your opponent". When you apply the 詠春膀手(Wing Chun Bong-Sau), you expose your elbow joint to your opponent. This will give your opponent a chance to put one hand under your elbow, and another hand on your fore-arm, and rotate your arm into an elbow locking position as shown in the following clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtBljSfkfR8

    Do you agree with the principle, "拳不露肘(Quan Bu Lu Zhou) - never expose your elbow to your opponent"? How would you make your Bong-Sau safe to apply?

    This is why:
    1) we never want or intend to use bong sau in a fight,
    so one can look at it as an emergency move when
    the first gate is breached, & a centerline attack is apparent on the outside(my attack is being deviated to the side)
    2) we train to hit as we bong and train the bong to disappear very
    quickly, so that one would be hard pressed to apply a chin na attack to it.

    Just my loonies worth

    James

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    This is why:
    1) we never want or intend to use bong sau in a fight,
    so one can look at it as an emergency move when
    the first gate is breached, & a centerline attack is apparent on the outside(my attack is being deviated to the side)
    2) we train to hit as we bong and train the bong to disappear very
    quickly, so that one would be hard pressed to apply a chin na attack to it.

    Just my loonies worth

    James
    My toonies worth is just like you say. The Bong never stays.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    My toonies worth is just like you say. The Bong never stays.
    IMO there's very few if any WC techs that should ever stay.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The Wing Chun Bong-Sau is just like the

    - XingYi half step Beng Chuan (move leading leg first),
    - Bagua circle walking (cross legs),


    Do you agree with the principle, "拳不露肘(Quan Bu Lu Zhou) - never expose your elbow to your opponent"? How would you make your Bong-Sau safer to apply if you have to use it?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not sarcasm- but just an observation. We have another wave of non wcers commenting on wing chun!!
    En paasim- wing chun is full of elbow strikes for close quarters work.Even the bong can turn into an elbow strike.

    Joy Chaudhuri

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    Thats where your Chi Sao kicks in.

    Bil Sao when you feel them attack your elbow and a full step back (if you train your footwork).

    Your footwork should make it easy for you to get out of trouble. Its the fundamental to fighting.

    I understand that in some other lineages footwork was once deemed for advanced persons only. I personally think it should be for beginners as does all TWC schools.

    Sorry for selling TWC, but got to undo alot of negative stuff thats been posted on here by Mr Niehoff.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Niersun View Post
    Thats where your Chi Sao kicks in.

    Bil Sao when you feel them attack your elbow and a full step back (if you train your footwork).

    Your footwork should make it easy for you to get out of trouble. Its the fundamental to fighting.

    I understand that in some other lineages footwork was once deemed for advanced persons only. I personally think it should be for beginners as does all TWC schools.

    Sorry for selling TWC, but got to undo alot of negative stuff thats been posted on here by Mr Niehoff.
    If I were ever to start a school I think the pupils should spend the first 3-4 month doing mostly footwork. So many seem to rush this part of your wck, even if it is one of the most important parts

  8. #8
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    The Risk of Wing Chun Bong-Sau
    Everything has risk. If you want to avoid risk, stay the f*** away from fighting. The T shirt I got from my last BJJ comp had the legend "no reward without risk".

    The risk of bon sao might be less than that of the punch in the face that resulted from not doing it due to "risk".

    IMO bon sao is always backed up by the wu sao. You are getting the two control points on the other guys limb, so he shouldn't be able to get two on yours to do the armlock you mention.

    Do you agree with the principle, "拳不露肘(Quan Bu Lu Zhou) - never expose your elbow to your opponent"? How would you make your Bong-Sau safer to apply if you have to use it?
    I suppose so, though treating it as some sort of ancient wisdom rather than the bleeding obvious is ridiculous. How would I make it safer? Train with grapplers that are good at applying such techs so I can develop the knowledge and muscle memory to know when my arm is at risk and how to avoid it.

    IMO there are other WC moves much more at risk of getting locked up - but only if badly executed.
    Last edited by anerlich; 01-24-2011 at 02:30 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Everything has risk. If you want to avoid risk, stay the f*** away from fighting. The T shirt I got from my last BJJ comp had the legend "no reward without risk".

    The risk of bon sao might be less than that of getting punched in the face.

    IMO bon sao is always backed up by the wu sao. You are getting the two control points on the other guys limb, so he shouldn't be able to get two on yours to do the armlock you mention.



    I suppose so, though treating it as some sort of ancient wisdom rather than the bleeding obvious is ridiculous. How would I make it safer? Train with grapplers that are good at applying such techs so I can develop the knowledge and muscle memory to know when my arm is at risk and how to avoid it.

    IMO there are other WC moves much more at risk of getting locked up - but only if badly executed.
    His new, probably getting some tips for Chi Sao. Be easy.

  10. #10
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    His new, probably getting some tips for Chi Sao. Be easy.
    He says he's been training since '74.

    Still, good advice. Apologies to all for pugnacity.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  11. #11

    Andrew!!

    Good to see you posting. The floods in parts of Australia have been very much on my mind.
    Regards, Joy

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niersun View Post
    His new, probably getting some tips for Chi Sao. Be easy.
    It's good to feel "new" again. Bruce Lee was still alive when I cross trained my WC system. I also remember that David Carradine just started his 1st Kung Fu TV series when I built my wooden dummy out of a telephone pole. Now both Bruce Lee and David Carradine are dead.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-24-2011 at 05:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Bong is transitory.

    You have as much chance of catching the wrist of a fast jab as you do applying an arm lock to a (correctly executed/unseen) bon sau.

    However, it is conceivable that one would allow the bon sau arm to be captured in order to occupy the opponents arms, (giving the Wing Chun man the ability to hit with his free arm, or to force a connection between you and opponent as Wing Chun operates optimally during connection/clinch phase.

    Also, a failed bon sau is backed up by a chain of potential movements.

    Suki
    "From a psychological point of view, demons represent the universal equivalents of the dark, cruel, animal depths of the mind. When we as martial artists are preparing ourselves to overcome our fear of domination at the hands of an opponent, we must go deep within our inner being and allow the darkest parts of ourselves to be revealed. In order to battle the monsters in an abyss, we must sometimes unleash the demon within" http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Everything has risk. If you want to avoid risk, stay the f*** away from fighting. The T shirt I got from my last BJJ comp had the legend "no reward without risk".

    The risk of bon sao might be less than that of the punch in the face that resulted from not doing it due to "risk".

    IMO bon sao is always backed up by the wu sao. You are getting the two control points on the other guys limb, so he shouldn't be able to get two on yours to do the armlock you mention.



    I suppose so, though treating it as some sort of ancient wisdom rather than the bleeding obvious is ridiculous. How would I make it safer? Train with grapplers that are good at applying such techs so I can develop the knowledge and muscle memory to know when my arm is at risk and how to avoid it.

    IMO there are other WC moves much more at risk of getting locked up - but only if badly executed.
    Do a bong sao with elbow down. Reverse the pitch
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  15. #15
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    Hello,

    I was always taught, and I was a cop , that when applying any type of Chin Na or other control method, the opponent should either go down to the ground or up on his toes. Destroys their root and sense of balance.

    A police officer, good ones anyhow, do not usually beat up the guys they are arresting. Also, it usually takes more skill to control someone than to strike them, ime anyhow.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

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