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Thread: The Risk of Wing Chun Bong-Sau

  1. #16
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    EVERY action you do attacking or defensive has holes, leaves you open somewhere, nature of the beast

    VT has had the saying "when your greedy with punches mind your empty space" for quite some time with regard to chain punching.

    As long as your aware of the possibilities and have the skills to use techs to deal with the downside of actions your fine.

    So for Bong-
    If someone is good enough to turn your elbow when you apply a bong you should at least have two options for getting out with good enough reactions.. Dan Sau is the basic responce taught to me , there are many more for Bong and every other action of VT IMO.

    Do you agree with the principle, "拳不露肘(Quan Bu Lu Zhou) - never expose your elbow to your opponent"?
    Hell No. especially when it comes to Pie or Karp Jarn

    How would you make your Bong-Sau safer to apply if you have to use it?
    First one would have to identify the problems with it which varies from person to person.. But the general rules you apply to punches is a good start.

    Dont leave it out
    Dont over extend etc etc
    Last edited by Liddel; 01-24-2011 at 07:25 PM.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    What's the difference between a horizontal punch and a vertical punch?
    One's horizontal and one's vertical.

    When you apply a:

    - horizontal punch, your elbow will point side way. This will give your opponent "more" chance to crack your elbow.
    - vertical punch, your elbow will point downward. This will give your opponent "less" chance to crack your elbow.
    OTOH, a horizontal punch arguably protects your head and jaw better. Also, according to karate guys, a twist added to the punch increases the impact power.

    Will your opponent be able to crack your elbow everytime you execute a horizontal punch? May be not. But the risk is always there. CMA training try to reduce your risk to the minimum.
    That's a WC rather than a CMA POV. There are plenty of CMA styles which have horizontal and twisting punches in them like CLF. And your own argument re the alleged risk of bon seems to be at cross purposes with your final statement.

    The following moves are considered to be high risk moves:

    - cross legs,
    - step in front leg,
    - punch back hand,
    - kick back leg,
    - expose elbow,
    - hand strike groin,
    - foot kick head,
    - ...
    Thanks, like just about everyone who's trained MA for more than a month I've heard that before. Funny though, how many if not all of these moves are in KF forms, and people continue to get knocked out with crosses, kicks to the head, and groin shots.

    IMO you can sometimes lose by playing too safe.

    Bon sao's in WC because it can sometimes be your only option, or if not the only option, the quickest and perhaps that's all the time you have. If I have choice between getting punched in the face and risking my elbow by bon'ing, I'm going for option B. Of course, I might be better looking than you and this have more to lose
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  3. #18
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    My 2 cents. Be like water; that's the short answer and you can avoid the problem.

    The long answer is that many pose with the bong sau. The bong sau is not a static position; it's a movement. I can imagine 3 ways to beat. One, sense when someone wants to attack the elbow and deal with it beforehand. Two, use another position using legs/arms to counteract. Three, wing chu includes techniques when you are in a bad position.

    I know this is a WC forum but I have seen tai-chi practitioners and filipino martial artists get out of the situation by being relaxed and using the arms and waist together to turn out of the lock.

    I conclude; elbow exposed is a bad position but just because it's bad does not mean it cannot be counter acted.

  4. #19
    I believe that the risk of having your bong sao "locked" by a "sensitive" (in the TCMA sense of the word) opponent, and have it pushed back at you, is higher than having your elbow broken while doing it, unless you hold the "pose", instead of using it as a transition technique, in which case the risks increase substantially.

  5. #20
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    I was always taught that bong sau is a transitional move not to be held up there.

    We also jung first then let the opponents force roll it over into bong sau rather than just winging it up there.....

  6. #21
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    Hello,

    Bong is a shape which is both transitional, it should not "stay", as well as one formed by your opponents energy, imo. In other words, Bong is formed when the force given is too much for whatever else you use to meet the incoming force and the arm changes to Bong due to this incoming force as a means to accept and deflect that energy. If the force is too great for the "shape of the Bong" then you would turn or shift further.

    While you could turn the Bong into an elbow or use it to disrupt someones structure, normally it is used to accept force and deflect the same, not produce force into the opponent. Of course, this is my opinion and not all will agree.

    The risks of the arm being grabbed or broken is reduced by training and good sensitivity. Fighting force with force is not a good idea when other options exist.
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  7. #22
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    Man, yet another 'Bong Sau' thread!

    Maybe started with a good intention but now we are seeing how divided we all seem to be about our famous Bong Sau.

    IMHO If you believe a bongsau to be a static arm posture, you've flicked through too many books. One of the better explanations already posted I think is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wei Wu View Post
    Bong is transitory.

    You have as much chance of catching the wrist of a fast jab as you do applying an arm lock to a (correctly executed/unseen) bon sau.
    I would also suggest that Bong Sau is intrinsicly linked to the other seeds of Tan and Fook sau, which are ALL transitory when we interact with eachother through Chisau/Looksau practises. This is also where you should experience first hand 'why' this is.

    To say that 'bongsau never stays still' is correct for interactive training, and if you consider bongsau as a 'method' itself (wrist/elbow/shoulder alignment) then Cup Jang is a bongsau as is a simple boxing right hook.
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 01-25-2011 at 06:51 AM.
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  8. #23
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    The question to me is if Bong is suitable for bridging or especially for use as a lead or block, IMO/IME it is not.. It is an assisting 'hand'...

    None of the tools, actions stay, or freeze but with Bong it can be more of a liability.

    Bong should not be used from outside to bridge esp as a lead bridge, and I've seen it used that way here...and when used that way I have seen it "stay" way longer than any punch would.. That kind of use will leave you wide open for way too long.

    Bong is best used from when already in contact and to deal with a certain kind of energy and position and when applied this way it should take something away from the opponent, break him down and gain superior position from in contact in order to adapt and maintain control...
    Last edited by YungChun; 01-25-2011 at 02:24 PM.
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  9. #24
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    When you and your opponent are moving in combat speed, everything is "transitory". It's the "intend" that matter. When you kick your opponent's groin, you don't have to wait for his hand to block your kick, the moment that his hand starts to drop, you can pull that kick back, and punch at his face. IMO, the word "transitory" is not sufficient to support our discussion (since everything is transitory).
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-25-2011 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Everything has risk. If you want to avoid risk, stay the f*** away from fighting. The T shirt I got from my last BJJ comp had the legend "no reward without risk".

    The risk of bon sao might be less than that of the punch in the face that resulted from not doing it due to "risk".

    IMO bon sao is always backed up by the wu sao. You are getting the two control points on the other guys limb, so he shouldn't be able to get two on yours to do the armlock you mention.



    I suppose so, though treating it as some sort of ancient wisdom rather than the bleeding obvious is ridiculous. How would I make it safer? Train with grapplers that are good at applying such techs so I can develop the knowledge and muscle memory to know when my arm is at risk and how to avoid it.

    IMO there are other WC moves much more at risk of getting locked up - but only if badly executed.
    Do a bong sao with elbow down. Reverse the pitch
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    IMO, the word "transitory" is not sufficient to support our discussion (since everything is transitory).
    So your suggestion is?

    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you kick your opponent's groin, you don't have to wait for his hand to block your kick, the moment that his hand starts to drop, you can pull that kick back, and punch at his face.
    And that's got everything to do with this thread right?

    My point is bongsau will not be 'as risky' if you're intention is to keep it moving and transitioning from one seed to the next. In fact, no seed is 'at risk' of being captured or grappled if you have this mind set, so what's your point exactly? I'm giving advice that relates directly to the thread and you're talking about feinting kicks to the groin?!

    FME Bongsau, as a technique like lansau, isn't transitory when it crushes through your defence. Feels pretty solid imo and if you've heard of the 'immovable elbow' (which relates to all 3 seeds) then you will know that a good Wing Chun player will not simply be pulled around and put into arm locks! And even if he is caught by some kind of miracle there's an array of back up methods to enable escape.
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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post

    Bong is best used from when already in contact and to deal with a certain kind of energy and position and when applied this way it should take something away from the opponent, break him down and gain superior position from in contact in order to adapt and maintain control...
    In your opinion!!

    GH

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    My point is bongsau will not be 'as risky' if you're intention is to keep it moving and transitioning from one seed to the next.
    I'm sorry that you don't get from my "groin kick and face punch" example. I just gave an example that even a "transitory" move, the "intend" can still telegraph yourself to your opponent. A downward block to a groin kick is no different from a Bong Sau block to a face punch. No matter how fast you can move your arm. Your "intention" make your arm to move in a "certain path". Your opponent can take advantage on that moving path. He can get in before contack, during contact, and after contact. The window is much wider than just "during contact".

    My point is "risk" will have noting to do with transitory even if you are moving in lighting speed.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-26-2011 at 02:07 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    FME Bongsau, as a technique like lansau, isn't transitory when it crushes through your defence. Feels pretty solid
    What does transition have to do with solidity?

    If it's going to break structure then it certainly isn't weak but that doesn't mean it hangs around for long either..

    In the classical teaching the Bong is an assisting hand--it typically passes control to the other hand and can close off facing, etc...
    Last edited by YungChun; 01-26-2011 at 12:49 PM.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    What does transition have to do with solidity?

    If it's going to break structure then it certainly isn't weak but that doesn't mean it hangs around for long either..
    I'm not saying you leave your lansau hanging around, I'm using the term to suddest you attack with lansau using pai jang. If one pai jang knocks you down what transition do you need?

    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    In the classical teaching the Bong is an assisting hand--it typically passes control to the other hand and can close off facing, etc...
    Maybe your using your bongsau in relation to lapsau here, and don't attack with your bongsau at all? Using classical ideals like 'bongsau is never still' has its place in interactive/chisau exchange. It isn't a rule that applies to every variation of bongsau, that's all I'm saying.
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