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Thread: The Risk of Wing Chun Bong-Sau

  1. #31
    YouKnowWho, that is a good question about bong sau. I think that it can be vulnerable to arm-lock if someone is still learning it and if they don't really have the transitions and flow that accompany it. I think it would be very difficult to lock someone who is good at it, a very low percentage technique at that point.

    The arm position by design is one that momentarily 'locks' the wing-arm into a posture where the tendons are 'bound'/preloaded and it is a position that one leads an arm into to apply various chin na techniques such as the basic wrist grab or the small wrap hand counter. Or to straighten the arm into elbow/shoulder lock. Even knowing how to apply these locks well, it is nearly impossible to apply them on someone with a decent bong sao, because some of the basic chin na counters are exactly the way the arm is taught to automatically flow away from the lock anyway. Could flow into things such as tan sao (elbow down), lan sao, cutting elbow, etc. And in addition to the arm movement, the body can turn and pivot the angle of the hips and change the dynamics to neutralize the attempt. Same results against someone trying to catch a lock with a Jiu-Jitsu/BJJ background too; they won't hit the lock unless someone is either pretty unskilled or just falls asleep.

    Anyway thats my perspective/experience. Interesting discussion.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
    a very low percentage technique at that point.
    Agree that stand up locking is easy to learn and difficult to apply. People can learn 20 different locking skills in 1 hour. It will make people to feel good about themselves. The successful rate is always low if your opponent has Peng Jing. There was one CMA master who gave a demo on the stage and challenged everybody who could apply any locking on him. Many audience got on the stage and tried, none of them could apply locking on him (of course none of the audience knew how to apply locking combo - use one move to set up next move).

    This thread only discuss the "risk" and not how often it could happen. Even your locking may not work on your opponent, that locking may put your opponent in defensive mode. Your opponent may lose "先机(Xian Ji) - dominate situation" at that particular moment. It's like your foot sweep may not take your opponent down. But when your opponent tries to escape your foot sweep, he may forget about attacking you. That's may be all you want - to put your opponent in defense mode at the particular moment.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-26-2011 at 06:07 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant View Post
    YouKnowWho, that is a good question about bong sau. I think that it can be vulnerable to arm-lock if someone is still learning it and if they don't really have the transitions and flow that accompany it. I think it would be very difficult to lock someone who is good at it, a very low percentage technique at that point.
    I agree, one of VT's golden rules is to never straighten/lose the elbow so any good fighter should have no probs giving it up on a plate and working thier way out.

    I also think often people talk from a chi sau training perspective rather than from sparring POV. I use Bong often to create a gap between me and an opponent when were in clinch range pushing off etc.. Bongs on offer there to try and grab but timing is to difficult to do it sucessfully, well for my non proffesional partners

    Its also something i see my sparring partners whos core strenght is boxing do, especially those who have the low lead hand and high rear cover style of trading...
    Strange style to me but sucessful for them.

    Bongs great for creating space in your center with hands shut down during standing clinch or when one is trying to grapple your hands together in pre swinging stages of a fight.

    The forearm can be used for pinning / pressing bridges and transitioning to elbows and is extremly useful from contact stages and should (if your well practised) be good for breaking grips turning opponents and controlling the center.

    My point - Bong is not just a answer to an attack it has many contact and non contact uses, none of which has resulted in me having it locked up.

    Does anyone here have a problem of getting it locked up often ?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liddel View Post
    Does anyone here have a problem of getting it locked up often ?
    All risky moves can be used as "bait". For example, raising guard can be used to invite kick, dropping guard can be used to invite punch. IMO, TCMA is just a big cheating game.

    I like to use it to invite my opponent to apply elbow lock on me. When he does that, since he is trying to grab my arm and not punching at my head, his arm will move in a much slower speed than his normal combat punching speed, The moment that his right hand touches my right elbow, the moment that my right hand will move a clockwise circle and touch his left elbow. I can then redirect his left arm to a place that will be advantage to me but dis-advantage to him. In TCMA, that's called "引(Yin) - arm guiding". With that arm control, I can do a lot of things.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-26-2011 at 06:57 PM.

  5. #35
    We drill to ensure the elbow doesn't stay up and be manipulated by trapping it ie pak sao, or if it is too slow rasing up jut saoing an attempt to bong. The energy of bong is to displace by ballistic force transfer left or right to your centerline as reference and then using the same energy exchange for opposite recoil lower back down asap to elbows in and striking. Think of the forearm quickly going to an angle that can displace another arm as a slapping arm....simultaneously the rear wu will be striking as the elbow lowers, as tut sao teaches us to cycle the attacking partnerships, always making an attacking action.
    The bongs energy displaces sideways the wu goes in straight,[kind of ] .
    Together you raise bong and wu for this reason in drilling forms, so the partnership of the actions ,bong wu, coincides with dynamic momentum of small shuffling steps to harness the bodyweigh in the bongs displacing point of contact and the wu too .
    We can drill these and add arm retraction to make sure we arent allowing ourselves to overturn on our axis lines as we attack in different directions, sideways left, right, back and at 45 deg angles, forwards.
    The Chum Kil shows bongs facing on the axis that 'looks' like we are trying to use it to turn ourselves as we use it , wrong idea. we just turn to face the guy we attack.
    We use it sideways as we go after a person who for instance may be moving along a wall. We use 2 low bongs done together to attack facing lead leg with either bong , regardless of leg leading. IOW we develop the speed of both internally rotating to each other for the force they create, same idea on the low arm of the dummy, used for speed of rotation to displace .....
    The drills can make one think that bong is a slow methodical action that requires the bong arm to stay up and crush fok sao's .
    Imagine the energy of a pak sao to slap and displace a wrist and then imagine you cant use the same hand to pak because an arm has x'ed the 'space' of your attack line, so we use the forearm suddenly and sharply raised using the angled forearm as a surface to exchange the same paking energy sideways, iow we dont need to contact the arm before using bong's energy, we need to sharply slap it with our arm using a raised elbow.
    Speed of the rotation is the key sideways , but not allowing yourself to turn with the bong , iow stay facing and let the speed of the bong raising up and sideways angled forearm do the job ...as chi-sao angling etc....
    Bong is part of an attacking action, wu sao is the one that is being helped to make another strike...
    If the wu strike is intercepted we can jut/lop etc....

    Try having a partner extend an arm chest level to you and hold it rigidly, then using your bong without pre-contact, slap the arm left or right [ left bong / partners right arm etc..]to try to turn the partner on their axis line[head to toes] using a sharp fast slap of the forearm, you might get 2 nches of gap or more depending on the resistance the partner gives, sometimes the partner can remove their arm suddenly like a blank in a gun of a beginner to see if you are over anticipating the arms contact as a place to make contacting force or the bang and recoil of the gun resulting in loss of target alignment...the results are enlightening. We can see that we can also get our tactical ends by allowing opponents to chase with too much force overturning themselves ....
    this drill is done without being in contact with each others arms.
    add the wu sao to strike as you do this 'slap' and recover the bongs elbow and you see a cycle of attack not bong lop pak ....hit

    ....if done correctly you cant see the bong, because its a fast blurring action
    Last edited by k gledhill; 01-27-2011 at 07:04 AM.

  6. #36
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    I always liked to think of the bong like doing an elbow strike just not pulling the wrist back. It should snap then change. It should only stay completed (if you need to fully complete it without already attacking) for a microsecond. I once had my eye split open by my partners bong sao. It should be explosive. Think a speeding bullet not a carradine kung fu move.

  7. #37
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    I like to use it to invite my opponent to apply elbow lock on me.
    Great, so you start the thread saying the safety of bon concerns you and now you're using it to bait your opponent. I gather you've got over your safety concerns, and in the space of a few days!

    LOL.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Great, so you start the thread saying the safety of bon concerns you and now you're using it to bait your opponent. I gather you've got over your safety concerns, and in the space of a few days!

    LOL.
    This thread can have 2 different levels of discussion.

    Level 1 - Does the risk exist?
    Level 2 - If it does then what will be the solution?

    If people don't believe such risk exist, the discussion will only stay on the 1st level. Some people say YES and others say NO. There won't be much meaningful discussion after that. If people agree that there are risk involve, the discussion may be able to get into the 2nd level which is much more interested IMO.

    The moment that we can get into the 2nd level of discussion, we may be able to get into the 3rd level of discussion and that is, "What will you do if your opponent counters your elbow lock in certain way?" By using Bong Sau as the root, we can branch out into many branches and end with a full grown tree.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 01-30-2011 at 06:25 PM.

  9. #39
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    I won't be trying to lock anyone's bon unless it's ridiculously crappy.

    I've already given my answer for level 2.

    Are you planning on levels 4 and 5? Spill the beans now, you might get there quicker.
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  10. #40
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    With all the discussions, that's why I don't like to call it "Bong" Sau, but "Bonging" Sau; as it is the "Bonging" action that works, but not the end product "Bong" posture.

    We tend to discuss a lot on bonging, boinging and banging on this forum

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This thread can have 2 different levels of discussion.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Level 1 - Does the risk exist?
    Level 2 - If it does then what will be the solution?
    Oh. I see. But this has all been covered already by most hasn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The moment that we can get into the 2nd level of discussion, we may be able to get into the 3rd level of discussion and that is, "What will you do if your opponent counters your elbow lock in certain way?" By using Bong Sau as the root, we can branch out into many branches and end with a full grown tree.
    No. There are no more levels to draw out pointless debates on Bongsau. No more bongsau trees to grow. This is what makes this forum so so dull imho.

    Man, at least T was entertaining!

    Threads dead dude... Threads dead.
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  12. #42
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    I can think of a lot of reasons that you would'nt use bong sau, but one of them would'nt be the risk of locking...... the arm is all ready bent! why would you try to straightin it out to lock it? by your theory no one should try to punch, the arm is straight and asking to be locked. though we are all taught to bend the elbow quick as... after punching to lessen the likely hood of locks/breaks.


    Being a big fan of chin na and knowing you have to be very good (not internet good lol) to apply it on the street, never mind in class. it's a theory that's not worth thinking about.


    Why do people look for problems that are'nt there... some one grabs your wrist... hit them with your other hand!!!!!!

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.O View Post
    I can think of a lot of reasons that you would'nt use bong sau, but one of them would'nt be the risk of locking...... the arm is all ready bent! why would you try to straightin it out to lock it? by your theory no one should try to punch, the arm is straight and asking to be locked. though we are all taught to bend the elbow quick as... after punching to lessen the likely hood of locks/breaks.


    Being a big fan of chin na and knowing you have to be very good (not internet good lol) to apply it on the street, never mind in class. it's a theory that's not worth thinking about.


    Why do people look for problems that are'nt there... some one grabs your wrist... hit them with your other hand!!!!!!

    Come on man, that would be too simple and too easy ... wait da minute ... that sounds like an Wing Chun technique ...

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.O View Post
    the arm is all ready bent! why would you try to straightin it out to lock it?
    If you look at this clip again, you try to straight your opponent's arm but he resists and try to bend his arm instead. You just "follow his bending" and help him to bend a little bit more.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtBljSfkfR8

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.O View Post
    some one grabs your wrist... hit them with your other hand!!!!!!
    Your opponent will not use his right/left hand to grab your left/right hand (he is in your front door - mirror stance). Since your center line and your opponent's center line will have intersection, you can punch him with the other hand as you have just pointed out. Your opponent will always use his right/left hand to grab your right/left hand (he is in your side door - uniform stance). This way his center line and your center line will not have intersection. When he grabs you this way, since he can just give you a quick pull or push and use your front arm to jam your back arm, you will not be able to generate any force from your back arm to punch him. You may not even be able to reach him with your back arm because he will be in your "side door - blind spot".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 02-01-2011 at 12:39 PM.

  15. #45
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    the arm is all ready bent! why would you try to straightin it out to lock it?
    THere are bent arm locks. I agree with the rest of what you said.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
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