Is it ok for Wing Chun to evolve?

[LoneTiger108]

We can look at MA as:

1. kick - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
2. punch - jab, cross, hook, hammer fist, ...
3. lock - wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. throw - hip throw, leg twist, leg break, leg lift, ...
5. ground skill - arm bar, leg bar, side mount, 69 mount, ...

You're right, you can look at MA that way. Personally I view the current trend of competitive sport fighting that way! And I have to also add that everything there, bar certain 'terms' are within the Wing Chun I have been exposed to. Albeit my groundwork was 'self studied' with what I had learnt and discussed with some pretty well know BJJ players to make sure I wasn't just coming to the wrong conclusions!

So to satisfy what you think consitutes Martial Arts, or the building blocks at least, I don't need to crosstrain or evolve my Wing Chun.

What constitutes MY Wing Chun Martial Art understanding?

1. Form
2. Interaction
3. Equipment
4. Weaponry
5. Literature

Now THAT imhhho is a complete Martial Art

[Graham H]

You're right, you can look at MA that way. Personally I view the current trend of competitive sport fighting that way! And I have to also add that everything there, bar certain 'terms' are within the Wing Chun I have been exposed to. Albeit my groundwork was 'self studied' with what I had learnt and discussed with some pretty well know BJJ players to make sure I wasn't just coming to the wrong conclusions!

So to satisfy what you think consitutes Martial Arts, or the building blocks at least, I don't need to crosstrain or evolve my Wing Chun.

What constitutes MY Wing Chun Martial Art understanding?

1. Form
2. Interaction
3. Equipment
4. Weaponry
5. Literature

Now THAT imhhho is a complete Martial Art

6. Sparring

You don't know your limits or errors until you have a tear up!!!

[LoneTiger108]

6. Sparring

You don't know your limits or errors until you have a tear up!!!

Er... I include sparring (Gorsau) within 2. Interaction Graham, as that is what sparring is imho Along with Sansau, Looksau and Chisau

[YungChun]

Er... I include sparring (Gorsau) within 2. Interaction Graham, as that is what sparring is imho Along with Sansau, Looksau and Chisau

And how many years or decades do you stick to the art alone, to training the basics, to training the advanced stuff? Do you ever finish, do you ever graduate? Do you ever leave the kwoon the nest and go outside?

And if so what do you graduate to?

Even real sparring VT vs VT (that means hard/full contact continuous) doesn't tell the story of where you are as a fighter it only tells you where you are in your group where everyone is doing what you do. The only way to grow past the kwoon, basic training level is to go outside the familiar, to go out and experience what is new.. Once we graduate high school we don't remain there to advance we leave and go on to bigger challenges... That is the key to growth.

[LoneTiger108]

Even real sparring VT vs VT (that means hard/full contact continuous) doesn't tell the story of where you are as a fighter it only tells you where you are in your group where everyone is doing what you do.

Listen, you're describing 'hardcore' Gorsau and I've said so many times that sparring like that just isn't my thing but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate it.

And FWIW it sounds like the majority of Wing Chun students out there crosstrain anyway, so their sparring sessions will undoubtably cover the broad range of skills you're talking of. But let's be clear, Wing Chun Gorsau is for Wing Chun people. It's very specific and quite dangerous too. No different to any other clubs sparring being unique to them (BJJ/MT/Boxing/TKD/Karate)

When have non WCK people ever seen that?? I would guess probably 'never' because most guys who did arrange stuff like that back in the days of inter-club challenges etc know that it was just craziness.

The only evolution that could be beneficial is the developments in safety gear! And the purists I know refuse to use any, so back to the eighties we go!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You think "gorsau" is hardcore?
Dude, you ever seen a DB gathering?


I witnesses a few gong sau's, both in WC and HK and of course I was in a coupe myself being young and stupid and also in the "inter dojo" closed door matches in kyokushin and Judo ( yes Judo) and I can honestly tell you that NONE of them come close to a DB gathering, those guys are just freaking crazy.

[YungChun]

Listen, you're describing 'hardcore' Gorsau and I've said so many times that sparring like that just isn't my thing but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate it.

So hard core gor sao isn't your thing?

And FWIW it sounds like the majority of Wing Chun students out there crosstrain anyway, so their sparring sessions will undoubtably cover the broad range of skills you're talking of.

No, the majority don't fight, they theorize all day... The core of most fighting arts is fighting not drilling... Even when I did karate we carried around our gear, that was our learning toolkit.

But let's be clear, Wing Chun Gorsau is for Wing Chun people. It's very specific and quite dangerous too. No different to any other clubs sparring being unique to them (BJJ/MT/Boxing/TKD/Karate)

It is normally very different and most gorsao is not hard full contact it's zealous chisao..

When have non WCK people ever seen that?? I would guess probably 'never' because most guys who did arrange stuff like that back in the days of inter-club challenges etc know that it was just craziness.

I don't know what that was supposed to mean.

The only evolution that could be beneficial is the developments in safety gear! And the purists I know refuse to use any, so back to the eighties we go!

Ah yes the purists.. Are they the ones who stay in the kwoon for decades theorizing how they would fight if they ever did? Back to the 80s or stuck in the 80s?

And you didn't answer my question.. You as a teacher or as a student: Do you ever graduate? Or do you advocate training the curriculum over and over forever?

[YungChun]

Going back to the point of this thread, which is IF it is OK for WC to evolve.
I think that, even the most conservative would say YES, but only IF the evolution doesn't change it from being WC.

EX:
Dealing with the shoot by pulling guard and going for a sub is good and practical, but it is not WC.
WC was not designed to deal with the "grappling puzzle of MMA" since it didn't exist back then.
So WC must evolves to deal with that so what are our choices?
One can do what Boxing and MT does and that is cross train in BJJ ( for example) and allow for that system to answer the puzzles it is best suited for - ground work.
And Keep WC for the stand up striking that it was designed for.
And that is a fair solution.
OR we can take the "MMA puzzle" as an example and find the WC solution for that puzzle.
Can WC have a solution for it?

VT does have a "solution" to these things and while the names have changed "MMA" etc, I don't think that these kinds of attacks were unknown, but they may well have been less common... The solution is using the same strategy and tactics that VT uses on any opponent--take his game away... How do you learn to do that? By doing it..

The problem isn't VT it's that too many people (A) don't have good core training and (B) don't actually do the work of sparring with it to find the answers.. This leads to (C) very few or practically no actual VT coaches out there with fighting experience to coach the next generation... This is where: "It isn't taught because it isn't fought," comes in.. Same goes for evolving, it can't evolve, the fighter can't evolve if he doesn't fight--it's a case of everyone staring at the finger...

[LoneTiger108]

It is normally very different and most gorsao is not hard full contact it's zealous chisao..

So, by what you're saying you don't have the same understanding of Gorsau as I do?

Gorsau is out and out fighting with an agreement of some kind. But it isn't chisau, isn't started in chisau and if there is any chisau in there you would miss it with a blink

I don't know what that was supposed to mean.

I hope that isn't a trend of your own you're developing dude. I re-read what I wrote and its pretty self explanatory to me.

And you didn't answer my question.. You as a teacher or as a student: Do you ever graduate? Or do you advocate training the curriculum over and over forever?

I forgot, your sig suggests you're from Moy Family and I am aware of the grading stamps you use in your little books, which is a great way to keep tabs on yourself by the way. I aint knocking it.

I also know you do not know my curricullum, so if I continuallly train it or not makes no difference to your understanding.

FWIW When my Sihing and I took a few guys through our Academy curricullum we assessed each stage and monitored them very closely. Our way of training rotates through various stages and 'chambers' if you like, so it is repeated until it's understood and the body and mind has it.

Students were certified and demonstrated in front of our Sifu at the British Museum, so I guess you could consider that was their 'Graduation' as they then leave The Academy.

And as much as I like coaching in such a way, I think you will understand me when I say that we're all individuals and have our strengths and weaknesses. Our likes and dislikes. This means that the curricullum we were taught and teach can be repeated and revisited throughout your Wing Chun journey. But then it is personal and students only return to The Academy if they want to help train others or want to still be a part of the Troupe and rehearse for performances and demos.

Its quite hard to find people that want to do that, which also explains why I have only taught very few people in my time with my Sihing. I haven't taught anyone on my own yet. Ever. And my son and daughter seem to be the only ones interested which is cool with me.

[Nite Templar]

VT does have a "solution" to these things and while the names have changed "MMA" etc, I don't think that these kinds of attacks were unknown, but they may well have been less common... The solution is using the same strategy and tactics that VT uses on any opponent--take his game away... How do you learn to do that? By doing it..

The problem isn't VT it's that too many people (A) don't have good core training and (B) don't actually do the work of sparring with it to find the answers.. This leads to (C) very few or practically no actual VT coaches out there with fighting experience to coach the next generation... This is where: "It isn't taught because it's isn't fought," comes in.. Same goes for evolving, it can't evolve, the fighter can't evolve if he doesn't fight--it's a case of everyone staring at the finger...

And you know that VT has the solution to these things because, why exactly? Because you have done it? The same strategy and tactics will work against everyone? Is that what you're saying? You have done that? You fight a boxer, you do A. You fight a wrestler, you do A. You fight a Thai boxer, you do A. You fight a BJJ fighter, you do A. You fight an mma man and you do A. And you learn to take his game away by, what was that you said? By doing it?

Doing what, exactly? What is this A that needs to be done and learned by simply doing it? Against everybody and anybody. And where can we see this? Let's say you're talking to some long lost cousin and you're telling him about wing chun. Or VT, as you refer to it, even though VT is just one approach to the art. But that aside, you are talking to him and he's seen plenty of mma fights, and boxing matches, and MT matches, and wrestling and grappling matches, but he's never seen VT or any other kind of wing chun. And he says, after you have explained VT, he says where can I see this against these other kinds of fighters? I'm curious, cuz. And you know, I'm from Missouri. I'd like to see how this works against all those other methods of fighting. And your answer will be what?

[Vajramusti]

I'm curious, cuz. And you know, I'm from Missouri. I'd like to see how this works against all those other methods of fighting. And your answer will be what?

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If you are interested in wing chun first search for a good teacher and ask him or her those questions. If you are not interested in wing chun what will an endless answer to a broad question get you.

Yung Chun has already stated - wing chun person plays his own game against other styles.... does not mean fixed responses...

Each boxer, grappler etc are different in their own way- you deal with what presents itself..
wing chun trains the individual- the style is not a bag of fixed responses.

joy chaudhuri

[YungChun]

So, by what you're saying you don't have the same understanding of Gorsau as I do?

Gorsau is out and out fighting with an agreement of some kind. But it isn't chisau, isn't started in chisau and if there is any chisau in there you would miss it with a blink

That may be your "understanding" but it doesn't reflect the majority of what is done in many many schools.. Got a clip?

I hope that isn't a trend of your own you're developing dude. I re-read what I wrote and its pretty self explanatory to me.

A trend of mine 'dude'? It was hardly clear.. I assume you mean all kinds of things there, we must assume you refer to gorsao, even though it seems not, you make assertion that this (whatever this is) happened in the 80s, and then imply that your nebulous references were clear...

I forgot, your sig suggests you're from Moy Family and I am aware of the grading stamps you use in your little books.

Little books? I had no little books when I trained under MoyYat.

So I assume you do graduate... Good!

[YungChun]

Yung Chun has already stated - wing chun person plays his own game against other styles.... does not mean fixed responses...

Each boxer, grappler etc are different in their own way- you deal with what presents itself..
wing chun trains the individual- the style is not a bag of fixed responses.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks Joy, I think it was clear... VT does what VT does, we play our game like any other method and in so doing attempt to take his game away..

Templar: I am going to be in Missouri in a month or so visiting someone there who used to post here by the name of Terence, perhaps we can all hook up or you could go check him out in the meantime, he does a lot of hard sparring non VT people...

[YungChun]

Please bring back a video. And no, I'm not from Missouri. But I think you might have a cousin there who could use some answers. Quick little one-liners that some people give to serious questions just don't seem to be enough, somehow. I wonder why that is?

Because you want specific answers like "If he does A" then "You do D"...If he steps this way then you must step that way, if this zone is filled, then make a new line 20 degrees to the left, etc...

The real answer is that you take the core/basic training and learn to apply it against person/style X by sparring/fighting them. If you fail, learn from that and keep working.. Or you can blame the art.. Or you can look deeper into the art for answers, seek out more experienced VT people, or you can toss the art out completely, VT is not for everyone.

VT attacks the line, the center... How you do that is dependent on what they give you and your own training as Joy said, he gets it.... VT has dozens and dozens of tools and we use them to break down the opponent, to disrupt them, to take things away by issuing energy via our structure... VT should be more simple not more complicated (lots of fixed responses)..

If you feel that VT as a method is flawed and inadequate with its myriad tools, techniques and tactics then I'd suggest doing another art.

[Vajramusti]

If you feel that VT as a method is flawed and inadequate with its myriad tools, techniques and tactics then I'd suggest doing another art.

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For sure. Much better than endless debating.
Debating and discussing are two different things.

joy chaudhuri