Is it ok for Wing Chun to evolve?

[Frost]

I haven't seen the footage in a very long time. You may be right. But, by definition, doesn't a "cross" come from the rear hand? If you are charging at someone with your body pretty much "square on" to him while punching.....which one would be the rear hand?

the leg at the back, its hard to charge both legs at the same time, that would be a hop

[goju]

If WC was like this, no it wouldn't need to evolve.

and if only people were kind enough to attack you one by one like that too...

[YungChun]

Just because that side's leg is in the rear sure doesn't make it a cross...

If I recall what he did looked more like karate's version of chain punching... Facing square with the shoulders and with continuous punches... The idea is essentially the same as in (some) chain punching, much more so than with any western boxing tools.

I am sure the clip is out there somewhere.

[Frost]

Just because that side's leg is in the rear sure doesn't make it a cross...

If I recall what he did looked more like karate's version of chain punching... Facing square with the shoulders and with continuous punches... The idea is essentially the same as in (some) chain punching, much more so than with any western boxing tools.

I am sure the clip is out there somewhere.

the clips on the second page its what i commented on, he hits him with a serious of crosses and straights before running him down, you dont see that in boxing because the rings too small and the ref would step in, doent mean he didnt use boxing principles to actually do it

vitor was a good boxer, he turned pro for a bit, he adapted what he did in boxing to MMA, thats it, claiming it as wing chun like is like claiming his early wins were wins for BJJ (which carlson did lol)

[YungChun]

the clips on the second page its what i commented on, he hits him with a serious of crosses and straights before running him down, you dont see that in boxing because the rings too small and the ref would step in, doent mean he didnt use boxing principles to actually do it

vitor was a good boxer, he turned pro for a bit, he adapted what he did in boxing to MMA, thats it, claiming it as wing chun like is like claiming his early wins were wins for BJJ (which carlson did lol)

That's just it the "principle" is more VT than WB IMO.. If he did continuous "blasting", keeping him off balance, stayed in range and faced him while he did it is what matters--that's not WB by anyone's definition I know of. And this is not higher level VT, even if done with exact VT tools, the running chain punch attack is what VT students do from day 1 but it's VT.

[hulkout]

Hey guys, It's been quite a long time since I posted anything. I have however been learning a lot and training. My take on it is this. People need to stop arguing and saying "Is it a Wing Chun blast, Is it a boxing blast, What Style is that?", etc. Think more in terms of logic, physics, and bio-mechanics. I'm sure Vitor Belfort never took a Wing Chun lesson in his life. The guys in the prisons who fight 52 Blocks style probably never have either. The old Irish and British bareknuckle boxers of the 19th century never did either. So why do these arts have so many things in common? Because it's the most logical way. When you're in close quarters, you're naturally going to square up. It wouldn't make sense to punch any other way than right down the middle. The old bareknuckle boxers punched with a vertical fist and the elbow down because they knew it was the best way under those conditions. Remember that in those days, kicks, knees, and standup grappling were allowed. That's also why they kept their hands lower very similar to the jong sao position in Wing Chun.

There are other circumstances where a horizontal fist going over your opponent's guard (cross) would be the best thing. A hook punch, sow choy (Choy Lay Fut) or roundhouse kick may also be the best thing to do in a given situation. I can already hear guys shouting out "Hey, that's not Wing Chun!" If you are that close-minded, I think you're just limiting your own development. So in response to the OP, I really don't think it matters whether you call it or don't call it Wing Chun. Just think about what makes the most sense. I've found Wing Chun to be the most logical martial art I've trained in so far, but I've also incorporated things from other things I've studied (Choy Lay Fut, Western Boxing, and JKD). If the purists claim I am not doing Wing Chun, then I hereby say "I am not a Wing Chun man" if it will make them happy.

[Nite Templar]

Hey guys, It's been quite a long time since I posted anything. I have however been learning a lot and training. My take on it is this. People need to stop arguing and saying "Is it a Wing Chun blast, Is it a boxing blast, What Style is that?", etc. Think more in terms of logic, physics, and bio-mechanics. I'm sure Vitor Belfort never took a Wing Chun lesson in his life. The guys in the prisons who fight 52 Blocks style probably never have either. The old Irish and British bareknuckle boxers of the 19th century never did either. So why do these arts have so many things in common? Because it's the most logical way. When you're in close quarters, you're naturally going to square up. It wouldn't make sense to punch any other way than right down the middle. The old bareknuckle boxers punched with a vertical fist and the elbow down because they knew it was the best way under those conditions. Remember that in those days, kicks, knees, and standup grappling were allowed. That's also why they kept their hands lower very similar to the jong sao position in Wing Chun.

There are other circumstances where a horizontal fist going over your opponent's guard (cross) would be the best thing. A hook punch, sow choy (Choy Lay Fut) or roundhouse kick may also be the best thing to do in a given situation. I can already hear guys shouting out "Hey, that's not Wing Chun!" If you are that close-minded, I think you're just limiting your own development. So in response to the OP, I really don't think it matters whether you call it or don't call it Wing Chun. Just think about what makes the most sense. I've found Wing Chun to be the most logical martial art I've trained in so far, but I've also incorporated things from other things I've studied (Choy Lay Fut, Western Boxing, and JKD). If the purists claim I am not doing Wing Chun, then I hereby say "I am not a Wing Chun man" if it will make them happy.

This is very interesting, hulkout. That's what I meant by wing chun like. I've never heard of Vitor Belfort ever doing any wing chun training either. And I'd bet that he never did. So squaring up is the most logical thing to do when you're in close quarters? I agree. Liked your remarks about what seems most logical in other circumstances also. Makes sense.

[Vajramusti]

Hulkout and nite templar- That is OK. Wing chun motions at their best are very natural motions in given contexts. You can find natural motions in other ways besides wing chun.

Back to class...

joy chaudhuri

[YungChun]

Hey guys, It's been quite a long time since I posted anything. I have however been learning a lot and training. My take on it is this. People need to stop arguing and saying "Is it a Wing Chun blast, Is it a boxing blast, What Style is that?", etc. Think more in terms of logic, physics, and bio-mechanics. I'm sure Vitor Belfort never took a Wing Chun lesson in his life. The guys in the prisons who fight 52 Blocks style probably never have either. The old Irish and British bareknuckle boxers of the 19th century never did either. So why do these arts have so many things in common? Because it's the most logical way. When you're in close quarters, you're naturally going to square up. It wouldn't make sense to punch any other way than right down the middle. The old bareknuckle boxers punched with a vertical fist and the elbow down because they knew it was the best way under those conditions. Remember that in those days, kicks, knees, and standup grappling were allowed. That's also why they kept their hands lower very similar to the jong sao position in Wing Chun.

There are other circumstances where a horizontal fist going over your opponent's guard (cross) would be the best thing. A hook punch, sow choy (Choy Lay Fut) or roundhouse kick may also be the best thing to do in a given situation. I can already hear guys shouting out "Hey, that's not Wing Chun!" If you are that close-minded, I think you're just limiting your own development. So in response to the OP, I really don't think it matters whether you call it or don't call it Wing Chun. Just think about what makes the most sense. I've found Wing Chun to be the most logical martial art I've trained in so far, but I've also incorporated things from other things I've studied (Choy Lay Fut, Western Boxing, and JKD). If the purists claim I am not doing Wing Chun, then I hereby say "I am not a Wing Chun man" if it will make them happy.

So VT is whatever works? Whatever you use today?

Sorry VT is clearly defined by her tools and tactics just like any art.

I teach BJJ but we don't do ground work... But that's not a problem if you're open minded right?

[KPM]

That's just it the "principle" is more VT than WB IMO.. If he did continuous "blasting", keeping him off balance, stayed in range and faced him while he did it is what matters--that's not WB by anyone's definition I know of. And this is not higher level VT, even if done with exact VT tools, the running chain punch attack is what VT students do from day 1 but it's VT.

I agree with Jim. And besides, like I said in my prior post, no one is saying Vitor studied Wing Chun. We're only pointing out that Vitor came up with something much more "wing chun-like" than "boxing-like" on his own.

[hulkout]

So VT is whatever works? Whatever you use today?

Sorry VT is clearly defined by her tools and tactics just like any art.

I teach BJJ but we don't do ground work... But that's not a problem if you're open minded right?

Like I said in my post, "I am not a Wing Chun man" if it'll make you happy. I never said not to follow the principles of straight line, centreline, facing, rooting, etc. I do believe on those principles. But just because something is not in the classical Wing Chun system doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. There are a million things which could happen in a real fight and knowing a few other things never hurts. You have to use whatever you've got. I have trained in boxing before. If I for some reason am off the line, don't you think it would make sense to come back with a left hook? Or in a real situation, are you going to remain loyal to the "true principles of Wing Chun" and not do it? And don't tell me that if your Wing Chun is good, you should never go off the line. In real fights, things break down and don't always go the way you want. You'd better have some backup. Another advantage is that it gives you an edge if you've got something the other guy's not expecting. If you always come right down the middle with straight attacks, it makes you super predictable. If you pull something out of your back pocket, it might just give you a victory. I don't care if it violates Wing Chun principles or not. If it gets you a win, then why not?

And your smarta*s comment about teaching BJJ, but not doing groundwork is pretty stupid. I never said to not follow the principles. Just that if an opportunity presents itself, doing another technique if it makes sense would be logical. They would not be my first choice when a fight begins, but it could come in handy. If you take a BJJ guy and he has the opportunity to punch some guy with a left hook, right uppercut combo and he purposely doesn't do it because it's not taught in BJJ, then that guy is a tool! If another BJJ guy got in a fight and did punch the guy, would you complain that he's not a true BJJ guy?

[Nite Templar]

That's another good post that I agree with, hulkout.

[Phil Redmond]

hulkout - exactly. . . .

[YouKnowWho]

If another BJJ guy got in a fight and did punch the guy, would you complain that he's not a true BJJ guy?

The Chinese wrestling was my teacher's major style (his nickname was Chinese wrestling king). There was a fight that he used "elbow striking" only. The reason was simple. That fight happened in a theatre office and the space was limited.

[anerlich]

Carlson Gracie's bjj evolved. Look what his young protege Vitor Belfort did to Wanderlai Silva. He was only 21 years old at the time.

Just about everybody's BJJ has evolved. New techniques, strategies, tactics, variations being developed all the time. Is the same thing true of Wing Chun?. No. Endless bickering over the definition of what it is and isn't is more par for the course, as recently demonstrated on this thread.

BJJ and Vale Tudo have evolved in the arenas they operate in, because their practitioners are not afraid to borrow or steal, or do something that might get the self appointed internet guardians of the "system" to grab torches and pitchforks and out the heretics. They care about what works, not what a bunch of keyboard warriors or internet sifus might have to say on forums and blogs.

Are we trying to say Vitor won that fight because he blithely stumbled across a WC strategy by accident? If so, why isn't running at the guy and chain punching winning more MMA matches? Dare I say you might look for clips of WC guys "emulating" Vitor's strategy and finding clips of the true believers getting uppercutted, hooked, taken down and subbed all over the place? Perhaps not, people tend not to publish vids of themselves getting creamed, part of the problem with what passes as "evidence" around here.

Too many people want to own this clip and some of Lyoto Machida's as effective WC in action, when neither has had a WC lesson in his life. Reaching desperately, like a drowning man for a pocket of air.

As much as I tired of recent overpromotion of CSLWC by the recently departed, I think Alan Orr has the best WC in MMA stuff out there on the interwebz. Of course, what gets published on the interwebz ain't the be all and end all or even necessarily the best.

Sorry VT is clearly defined by her tools and tactics just like any art.

I teach BJJ but we don't do ground work... But that's not a problem if you're open minded right?

VT (Vale Tudo) includes both standup and groundwork. See, I too can make smarta$$ remarks irrelevant to the discussion.