Is it ok for Wing Chun to evolve?

[sanjuro_ronin]

While I admire your fatalistic and pessimistic attitude ( I am a nidan in kyokushin after all, LOL) it doesn't hold water.
I said "WE" in my post and by WE I include myself since for far too long ( IMO) I too believed in far too much BS.
You wanna believe that there is no changing people, great.
Some of us KNOW that isn't the case.
So we keep trying and guess what?
It reminds us of how crucial it is to keep real to the reality of MA and how they truly WERE as opposed to what some people want them to be so that they can continue on their trip in fantasy land.

You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

[Frost]

While I admire your fatalistic and pessimistic attitude ( I am a nidan in kyokushin after all, LOL) it doesn't hold water.
I said "WE" in my post and by WE I include myself since for far too long ( IMO) I too believed in far too much BS.
You wanna believe that there is no changing people, great.
Some of us KNOW that isn't the case.
So we keep trying and guess what?
It reminds us of how crucial it is to keep real to the reality of MA and how they truly WERE as opposed to what some people want them to be so that they can continue on their trip in fantasy land.

You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

true 10 years in that world over, sometimes i prefer your brutal honesty to the photos you post..........but only sometimes

[YouKnowWho]

No kicking below the waist or punching above the shoulders, light gloves.

That doesn't test wing chun against karate,

I had guys came in to my school and asked for matches with rules such as:

- arm wrestling only (a weight lifter),
- push hand only (a Taiji guy),
- punching only (a boxer),
- kicking and punching only (a MT guy),
- throwing only (a Judo guy),
- everything go (a crazy guy),

I found out it was fun to try all different kind rules. It forces me to look at MA from different angles. It also forces me to "cross train" long before the term MMA was ever heard of.

[ShortBridge]

I concede.

[LoneTiger108]

I almost always regret engaging in this type of dialogue. Minds are never opened, opinions are never changed. So if I go back into my hole, say what you will.

Personally, I don't think you need to retreat back into that hole of yours. Especially since you've only just arrived here!

We all change if we feel it's 'right' for ourselves. Maybe if more appreciation was shown to the whole of the Wing Chun curricullum, rather than just the sansau/gorsau/MMA competitive approach, then we might actualy get somewhere. We have things that other 'sport' arts haven't, and that makes some people envious. We also understand that some very skilled exponents of Wing Chun just don't like to promote themselves in the same way, say as a MMA exponent does.

I found out it was fun to try all different kind rules. It forces me to look at MA from different angles. It also forces me to "cross train" long before the term MMA was ever heard of.

I Like to promote weaponry, and when I first came here talking of such things it was purely dismissed because it either had no place in the streets (where you gonna find a pole!?) or the competitive arena (you aint the Dog Bros so you know diddly!)

I hate to say it, but without weaponry your Wing Chun will always be empty. It's just the way it is and unfortunately if it isn't a requirement in the ring/cage many MMA exponents are simply not interested. Shame, because this is also where you will find many answers to questions about our purpose. And believe it or not some of us are simply happy preserving what we have and may only coach people who share our passion.

I think we're at a place in Martial Arts in general where most of the public schools will teach you what you want to learn. The student is dictating. Please, visit my Sifu or most Wing Chun Sifus I know and try to learn like that and you will be out on your ear. We do what we do, others do what they do.

Appreciate what is there, not criticize what you think isn't.

[YouKnowWho]

if it isn't a requirement in the ring/cage many MMA exponents are simply not interested.

This remind me one of my favor "sport vs. combat" jokes.

A boxer challenged a TCMA guy and the TCMA guy accepted. During the day of challenge, the boxer brought his boxing gloves, and the TCMA guy brought his Guan Dao.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuBNTXS1SIY

[LoneTiger108]

well, some people take challenges more 'seriously' than others

I think what I was trying to say was, most MMA guys that have tried Wing Chun may never have learnt the pole or knives, for example, and so may not understand some finer aspects of what we do. Other equipment like the sticks and rings are our weight training and will only benefit your strength, speed and power.

But you may get that training through other methods.

FWIW Does anybody here consider this an evolution of Wing Chun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iCPeCkuSaY&feature=fvwk

[YouKnowWho]

Agree! The original purpose of TCMA training was to learn how to use a weapon effectively in the battle field. The open hand training was only the intermediate step to reach to that goal. Today, that intermediate step become most people's final goal.

When the cold weapon ended and the hot weapon started, people started to kick high and roll on the ground. The funnest thing is some people don't even consider "firarm" as part of their MA training.

[Hardwork108]

I joined this thread late and I have not read it all, so I hope that I am not repeating anyone.

Do you think it is ok to modify or change wing chun and still call it wing chun?

IMHO, if you "change" Wing Chun then you end up with something that is not Wing Chun. So, why change it, and not just train something else that perhaps suites one better?

"Modifying" Wing Chun, has a different implication than "changing" it, as it is more in par with EVOLVING it, and of course, Wing Chun has been evolving for hundreds of years, and hopefully in the hands of authentic kung fu masters on one level, and/or through individual completion and personal mastery of the style, which then evolves in accordance to the personality and essence of a given exponent.

The latter evolution is a personal one, and I believe that this increases in relevance when practices his art authentically and aims for mastery.

Should the art be flexible enough to change with the times and / or geography as it moves to different places and faces different issues and styles than what it was designed to face originally?

IMHO, the art of Wing Chun was not designed with prejudices in mind, when it came to fighting situations. That is the whole point of Wing Chun, that is you use its principles to guide you whenever in doubt. It is the PRINCIPLES of Wing Chun that make it flexible, however you need the correct technical training to put it all together. Unfortunately, most WC nowadays is taught as a one dimensional fighting system, hence the feel the need to change it, improve it, or make it better by a lot of people.

So, how many people learn Wing Chun in the way it was meant to be learned and practiced, with complete understanding of its principles and their relationship to the techniques as regards combat application, specially NOWADAYS?

Or perhaps it is a piece of history meant to be preserved as is. Even that is a difficult task as different lineages have added their own flavor in the recent past.

IMHO, Wing Chun has to be practiced as the complete art that it is, independent of the lineage that one belongs to. Of course, I am talking authentic lineage, not the "John Smith" variety.

I'm curious at to how people feel about this. Perhaps a slight modification to the name would show the root but acknowledge that it has been changed. American Wing Chun for example or Wing Chun Jistu if you want to marry the 2 styles.

I believe that if one really CHANGES Wing Chun then it becomes something else, so better to change the whole name all together.

How do you feel about what is and isn't Wing Chun?

What isn't Wing Chun, is what becomes something else, leaving behind a cosmetic resemblance to the original art.

The art that is REALWing Chun, has been evolving one way or the other for centuries. To completely understand WC's evolution and essence one must practice it AUTHENTICALLY, ie. not mixed with BJJ, TKD, MMA and so on. Nor to practice standardized/b@stardized "consumer friendly" versions.

Once one builds all round abilities in Wing Chun to an advanced level, or any other TCMA style for that matter, then the evolution will start within him first, when the style becomes him, and he becomes the style.

IMHO, one can go on to practice other MA when one has practiced WC AUTHENTICALLY to an advanced level, but I believe that this search for knowledge does not require the practitioner to CHANGE his Wing Chun.

[YouKnowWho]

IMHO, if you "change" Wing Chun then you end up with something that is not Wing Chun. So, why change it, and not just train something else that perhaps suites one better?

We can look at MA as:

1. kick - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
2. punch - jab, cross, hook, hammer fist, ...
3. lock - wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. throw - hip throw, leg twist, leg break, leg lift, ...
5. ground skill - arm bar, leg bar, side mount, 69 mount, ...

If we just treat those as the "building blocks", it should have nothing to do with whatever the style that we train. We don't need to change our style. We can just make it more complete. The day that we start to look at how many different ways that we can use our elbow and knee, the day that we no longer think about "style" but what will be needed for "combat efficiency".

[Nite Templar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardwork108
IMHO, if you "change" Wing Chun then you end up with something that is not Wing Chun. So, why change it, and not just train something else that perhaps suites one better?

We can look at MA as:

1. kick - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
2. punch - jab, cross, hook, hammer fist, ...
3. lock - wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. throw - hip throw, leg twist, leg break, leg lift, ...
5. ground skill - arm bar, leg bar, side mount, 69 mount, ...

If we just treat those as the "building blocks", it should have nothing to do with whatever the style that we train. We don't need to change our style. We can just make it more complete. The day that we start to look at how many different ways that we can use our elbow and knee, the day that we no longer think about "style" but what will be needed for "combat efficiency".

Although it could be said that your list is a little incomplete, YouKnowWho, or maybe that there are things on it that someone else might not agree with, I think the main thrust of your post hits the nail completely on the head. It should all go into one big pot, and you take the various tools, or building blocks as you call it, out of the pot that suit you personally. That fits into who you are and what you determine is best for you to be able to fight with. And not worry about the labels. And of you're doing the work, and constantly sparring against quality people, then you can figure out what you have to do, and how to put those building blocks together in a way that makes sense.

What's more important, being known as a wing chun man or being known as a guy who can handle himself? And if it's the second and not the first, then you better be willing to go into that pot and take what you need. I dare say there are a lot of people with big titles and supposed reputations who wouldn't last very long with some other people who have left the labels and the titles behind and just train to be the best fighter they can be.

[Hardwork108]

We can look at MA as:

1. kick - front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
2. punch - jab, cross, hook, hammer fist, ...
3. lock - wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
4. throw - hip throw, leg twist, leg break, leg lift, ...
5. ground skill - arm bar, leg bar, side mount, 69 mount, ...

If we just treat those as the "building blocks", it should have nothing to do with whatever the style that we train. We don't need to change our style. We can just make it more complete. The day that we start to look at how many different ways that we can use our elbow and knee, the day that we no longer think about "style" but what will be needed for "combat efficiency".

I see your point on one level, but in another level a given style will have its own principles and contexts which will give it its own framework and essence. The style may still have all the techniques that you have mentioned, but it will have its own delivery mechanisms that may be slightly different from other styles, eg. Tension/relaxation timings, breathing techniques in relation to power release, stance and weight distribution, and so on.

IMHO, the existance of such principles can sometimes make cross training counter productive, as one may be required to accommodate clashing principles.

[Hardwork108]

Although it could be said that your list is a little incomplete, YouKnowWho, or maybe that there are things on it that someone else might not agree with, I think the main thrust of your post hits the nail completely on the head. It should all go into one big pot, and you take the various tools, or building blocks as you call it, out of the pot that suit you personally. That fits into who you are and what you determine is best for you to be able to fight with.

IMHO, you have just described what the founders of various kung fu styles had done in the past.

And not worry about the labels.

I believe that past masters "labeled" their styles because their style had certain characteristics, fortes and essence that made their given style special. Also, being labeled as a style, does not prevent that style from being a complete (NOT perfect) martial art.

And of you're doing the work, and constantly sparring against quality people, then you can figure out what you have to do, and how to put those building blocks together in a way that makes sense.

IMHO, you can use the same mind set when you are training a given style.

What's more important, being known as a wing chun man or being known as a guy who can handle himself?

What is more important? Easy, being known as a Wing Chun man who can handle himself.

I dare say there are a lot of people with big titles and supposed reputations who wouldn't last very long with some other people who have left the labels and the titles behind and just train to be the best fighter they can be.

From a TCMA point of view, labels and titles are irrelevant and IMHO, the people who flaunt their titles and labels are not the real deal TCMA masters, instead they are the Mcdojo "sifus" are responsible for so many people learning useless pseudo kung fu, there by making them form low opinions of these lethal fighting systems.

[YouKnowWho]

IMHO, the existance of such principles can sometimes make cross training counter productive, as one may be required to accommodate clashing principles.

I met professor Wang De-Yin who taught the Beijing Physical Education University many years ago in China. He taught Chinese Shuai Chiao, Judo, and western wrestling there. He also trained the National Chinese Oympic Judo team and National Chinese Oympic wrestling team (there is no Olympic Shuai Chiao category). I asked him a simple question, "Do you feel any difficult to teach Shuai Chiao, Judo, and wrestling at the same time?" His answer was surprised simple, "We all have 2 arms and 2 legs don't we?"

I personal don't see any principle conflict among different throwing art. As far as the striking art, unless people care too much about the label "internal", a punch is just a punch, and a kick is still just a kick.

[Hardwork108]

I met professor Wang De-Yin who taught the Beijing Physical Education University many years ago in China. He taught Chinese Shuai Chiao, Judo, and western wrestling there. He also trained the National Chinese Oympic Judo team and National Chinese Oympic wrestling team (there is no Olympic Shuai Chiao category). I asked him a simple question, "Do you feel any difficult to teach Shuai Chiao, Judo, and wrestling at the same time?" His answer was surprised simple, "We all have 2 arms and 2 legs don't we?"

I personal don't see any principle conflict among different throwing art. As far as the striking art, unless people care too much about the label "internal", a punch is just a punch, and a kick is still just a kick.

Again, I see your point and perhaps there is not much conflict in principles among different throwing arts. I agree that some styles are easier to cross train with each other than others.

For example, I have also studied Chow Gar Souther Praying Mantis and I don't believe that you can just take it and cross train it with say, Karate and Muay Thai. The reason for this is that a lot of the conditioning exercises for the latter two martial arts would be in conflict with and hence be counter productive to Internal body unity development principles of this particular lineage of Chow Gar.

Perhaps, it would be easier to cross train Chow Gar with styles with similar concepts and principles, such as Pak Mei. This way, the training would possibly compliment each other.

Actually, I can apply the same example to my Wing Chun training. In WC we try to achieve ultra relaxedness and flow in techniques, that are live, sensitive and constantly changing. If one tries to cross train it with some of the "harder" Japanese styles of karate, where the tension principles are different and where sometimes force is met with force, then he will experience a conflict in principles, which would hinder his development in Wing Chun.

Continuing on the same line. Both my WC and Chow Gar sifus discouraged weight training. Each sifu taught his own alternatives for strength development. Cross training these arts with MAs that incorporate weight training would also create a conflict.

So, that is why I believe that there is relevant cross training and irrelevant one, and I think that the more irrelevant cross training one undertakes, then the more he needs to have mastered and understood his core art first. It is just my way of looking at this.